toldailytopic: Memorial Day Weekend: What does it represent for you?

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Skavau

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Traditio said:
I advocate the idea of the [Platonic] Fascist State out of respect for human life.
That's a sick joke in and of itself. Your Platonic fantasy is on record for endorsing the complete institutionalization of human existence which would effectively render life pointless. You want to consider that 'respect', I don't know what you would consider disrespect.

It is for the literal implementation of a human hive mind, with the willful destruction of the individual a goal to that end.

In my opinion, a human life is so valuable, so absolutely precious that his/her care shouldn't be left to chance. Each one should be cultivated and cared for so very carefully and painstakingly in order that he or she can live as well as humanly possible.
As I said: The dissolution of the individual in favour of a collective hive mind.

I think that there is some truth in this, but I also think that it's bizarre that the answer is "war." I'll start another thread on the matter.
Sometimes you are left with no choice.
 

Traditio

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Because you have the freedom to post your beliefs on this forum?

So does Selaphiel, who doesn't live in the US. So do the various British people on this board, who don't live in the US. In fact, I'm not sure of anyone who doesn't have that freedom, except for very certain cases. The Chinese might not. That said, we're heading that way here in America with the laws to infringe net neutrality. It's not the enemy soldiers who are trying to infringe our ability to post our beliefs on internet fora. That's something that we have to fear from governments and corporations.

You can still make the choice of smoking it (albeit an illegal action in the eyes of the majority), but by reducing your intake or ceasing your activities with it, you will find out that your ideas will change. You are using your Platonic ramblings as a way to justify your use....good luck.

No, no. The claim is that soldiers (being a tool of the government) preserve freedom. I have the "freedom" to do illegal things wherever I live. It doesn't matter if I am in China, in Russia or here in America.

In any case, I don't smoke marijuana. I don't have that legal freedom. :p

Also actions by people that will trade freedom for the hopes of security...when in fact deserve neither.

But note, this has nothing to do with soldiers. Soldiers fighting certainly aren't preserving those freedoms. It's governments and corporations here at home who are destroying them.

Your wrong, you can refuse to serve, there is no longer a draft and soldiers can refuse to fight.

If a soldier refuses to fight, he can go to jail or worse. That's not freedom.

Men have ideals for the future, some which they hold dear enough to fight for, if your ideals are important you have to ask yourself, how important, to what extent will I stand for this ideal, will I fold when threatened with jail/injury or am I willing to make the ultimate sacrifice? Where do you stand philosopher?

Why is it necessary to fight and die in order to live in peace, liberty, tranquility, etc?
 

Traditio

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That's a sick joke in and of itself. Your Platonic fantasy is on record for endorsing the complete institutionalization of human existence which would effectively render life pointless. You want to consider that 'respect', I don't know what you would consider disrespect.

Skavau, face the facts: you're going to live as someone's "slave" in the end. You're going to have to adapt yourself to meet somebody's desires in the end. The way things are, it's probably going to be some corporation. Your life is going to be determined, chances are, by corporations and their government lackies. You are going to live as poor a life as corporations can get away with. You are going to suffer the loss of as many liberties as the corporations can afford to take away.

You will, Skavau, in all likelihood, waste your life doing the bidding of some CEO on Wall Street, making somebody money.

The difference between the "hive mind" of the corporation and the "hive mind" of the Platonic Fascist State is that the "hive mind" would have been for your own good, and the Platonic Fascist State would have had your best interests in mind.

I'm pretty sure that Bill Gates doesn't.
 

Skavau

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Traditio said:
So does Selaphiel, who doesn't live in the US. So do the various British people on this board, who don't live in the US. In fact, I'm not sure of anyone who doesn't have that freedom, except for very certain cases. The Chinese might not. That said, we're heading that way here in America with the laws to infringe net neutrality. It's not the enemy soldiers who are trying to infringe our ability to post our beliefs on internet fora. That's something that we have to fear from governments and corporations.
You have no right to complain about creeping censorship when you support it yourself. May I remind you (and all observers):

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73783

Reich Chancellor Traditio said:
Plato speaks rightly when he says that the State must censor the poets, that the State itself must dictate the nation's cultural expression. If Britney Spears proposes to the State that she wants to sing songs about break-ups, boyfriends and sex, then the State does well in censoring her, in forbidding her from sharing her wicked wares with the citizenry.

The State must look to it that its citizens are brave, self-controlled, pious...in short, the State must look to it that its citizens seek excellence in everything. Plato says that the poets who play in the State must compose songs and plays about people doing noble things and being courageous in the face of death.
 

Skavau

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Traditio said:
Skavau, face the facts: you're going to live as someone's "slave" in the end. You're going to have to adapt yourself to meet somebody's desires in the end.
Well, I'll take that as a concession. I'll take that to mean that you're going to dispense with pretending that you're against censorship and for the value of human life.

I'll skip the conspiracy rambling about corporations controlling my life. I have nothing to say or add to such silliness.

The difference between the "hive mind" of the corporation and the "hive mind" of the Platonic Fascist State is that the "hive mind" would have been for your own good, and the Platonic Fascist State would have had your best interests in mind.
Well I got you to say it. You don't care about individuality. You only care about subjugating the entire population.

But it's all okay, as its for "their own good". It is nice to see the anti-war movement have such impressive intellects. You desire an existence comparable to Equilibrium.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
What liberties exactly have the soldiers gained for us?

Are you unfamiliar with the War of Independence? :squint:

How do I know that I have those liberties?

You can read the constitution, and get kidnapped by Somali pirates. :plain:

Elohiym, if you would have died in Kuwait, all that you would have died for is an empty, hollow word. That's it. The sound.

No. I would have died for the intent of my heart.

I think that there is some truth in this, but I also think that it's bizarre that the answer is "war."

I think you should familiarize yourself with the events that preceded operation Desert Storm, namely operation Desert Shield and all the months of negotiations. Saddam had ample opportunity to pull out of Kuwait before the U.S. liberated her in the wake of his intentional destruction of her oil wells. Still, the U.S. only went so far and left his military and government in tact, proving the objective of the conflict was to liberate Kuwait and defend Saudi Arabia.
 

Sherman

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Some very bizarre things have been said in this thread about Memorial day.

Weird
Why should we commemorate people who were forced to kill other people? We shouldn't celebrate that. We rightfully should condemn the government that "forced them." Not that the government could have forced them. They could have refused to fight and faced imprisonment. They could have fled the country.

Weirder
And I think when our country is mature, Memorial Day's meaning will be broadened to honor all of our ancestors, especially those who have passed on, who helped to contribute to our lives today, and who help make us who we are now. Soldiers yes, who are willing to risk everything for our country; but also those worthy of honor who make peace, as well as those who fight the wars we so stupidly get ourselves involved in way too often. And those who have created the arts and the sciences of our culture; those who designed and built our cities, and those who preserved nature, and so on.

Who would you honor, besides our soldiers?

Weirdest
Fantasies can set you free. You can build on them. That's how anything and everything gets done.
Memorial Day also brings out the kook in some people. These statements certainly are very whacky. What do these have to do with Memorial Day?--Nothing. Memorial day is to honor those servicemen who sacrificed in service to America. Their sacrifice is what allows these ungrateful folks the freedom to spew their bilge on this holiday.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
How much more liberty do we have than the Swiss? Do the Swiss die as much for liberty as US soldiers do?

Have you ever been to Switzerland?

When I lived there for several months back in the early 80s, I discovered that the majority of the male population was armed to the teeth with government issued assault rifles in their homes they were told keep follow compulsory military service.

Even the Swiss realize that sometimes liberty must be defended.
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
In any case, I don't smoke marijuana. I don't have that legal freedom. :p

Sure thing Trad!

For some one that brings marijuana up weekly, if not more often and then claims not to use? :p

Don't worry, it would take too much of an effort for the authorities to come after you on the grounds of your internet statement. ;)

It will probably happen during a routine traffic stop when the government thugs shake you down! :D
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
Have you ever been to Switzerland?

When I lived there for several months back in the early 80s, I discovered that the majority of the male population was armed to the teeth with government issued assault rifles in their homes they were told keep follow compulsory military service.

Even the Swiss realize that sometimes liberty must be defended.

You mean the Swiss don't follow Plato?:shocked:

They must be a very uncivilized country!:rotfl:
 

Son of Jack

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Have you ever been to Switzerland?

When I lived there for several months back in the early 80s, I discovered that the majority of the male population was armed to the teeth with government issued assault rifles in their homes they were told keep follow compulsory military service.

Even the Swiss realize that sometimes liberty must be defended.

Most countries that are neutral remain so because no one wants to mess with them.:chuckle:
 

eameece

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Pete McCloskey on Memorial Day

Pete McCloskey on Memorial Day

The following is the final draft of the Memorial Day speech that Pete McCloskey is to give at the Golden Gate National Cemetery today. McCloskey was a company commander and silver star winner from the Korean War. He was also the first (and possibly only) major Republican to challenge Nixon on the conduct of the (Vietnam) war.

_____
Memorial Day, 2011

For over 145 years, we have set aside a day at the end of May to honor our nation's war dead. It is a sacred day. We pause for a brief moment to look out over the white crosses, and honor those young men who lie beneath them. War is the work of young men, not old. It has been thus since the greatest and most tragic of our wars, the Civil War. Most of those buried here served when one of the nation's values was that it was a duty to serve the country.

150 years ago this spring, our nation broke apart. Eleven states seceded from the Union, believing that the Constitution, as they read it, entitled them to do so. Young men died on both sides, one believing that it was right to preserve the Union, the other believing with equal sincerity that the North had no right to change the way of life and values of those in the South.

Of a new nation of some 32 million people, over 700,000 died in combat, or in prison camps. No war since has matched that sacrifice.

By World War II , our population had quadrupled to over 130 million, but we suffered only slightly over 400,000 deaths. In Korea, some 36,000 died, and in Viet Nam, with our population now over 160 million, 56,000 died. Most of those buried here died in those three wars.

But since, in a series of small conflicts, in Grenada, Panama, Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan, less than 12,000 have died. Since 1971, we have had an entirely volunteer Army. In nation of over 300,000 million people, less than one per cent of our families have sons or daughters at risk.

Significantly, during the eight years of the Viet Nam War authorized by our Congress in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, no sons of Members of Congress or Presidents fought there.

And while we honor the dead, perhaps this Memorial Day, we should stop and consider the hope expressed by Abraham Lincoln at the Gettysburg battlefield that “these honored dead shall not have died in vain.” We might well stop and consider the disconnect mentioned by Secretary of Defense Gates the other day about the world's most powerful and prosperous nation fighting its wars with only a fraction of its citizenry bearing the burden.

Perhaps we should reconsider that ethic of a national duty to serve shared by the young men who lie underneath these crosses…….perhaps some sort of national service where the children of the privileged and wealthy also serve, where the perils of combat are shared by young men and women of means and education.

And today, we should perhaps honor the most the few young soldiers, largely from rural or impoverished areas, who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, or been maimed for life by the most terrible of modern guerrilla weapons, the improvised explosive device or I.E.D.

For we ourselves make war with terror-inducing weapons. No longer do we fight with rifles, grenades and bayonets, as did most of the young men lying here in these beautiful rolling hills.

We now fight with weapons of “shock and awe,” the blockbuster bomb, or guided missile delivered by an unmanned drone directed by people in air-conditioned buildings here in the United States. The so-called “collateral damage” when these weapons suddenly land without warning in a village in the Muslim World virtually guarantees the continuing hostility of their inhabitants and sympathizers around the world.

I can recall only one instance where this war by massive air power had a favorable result, that being the overwhelming bombardment in Serbia which effectively halted a cruel genocide, and led to the trial of the murderous generals before the World Court at The Hague.

Of late, we have turned away from the concept of world peace through world law for which we fought in World War II. We have abandoned the principles of Nuremberg and Geneva which we led the world to adopt.

There could be no better time than Memorial Day to spend a few moments in quiet consideration of where and when we loose the dogs of war. The time draws near when our enemies will possess that most terrible of weapons we introduced to end World War II.

Last week, our Congress gave thunderous approval to the idea of going to war against Iran to prevent their acquisition of atomic weapons. At the same time the Congress gave similar applause to the Prime Minister of a country which has refused to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but is known to possess over l00 nuclear warheads.

A famous Marine General and former National Security Advisor has suggested that the evolving aspirations of people in North Africa and the Mideast gives us the opportunity to reach out to those people and presumably aid in overthrowing their leaders. In the past we have overthrown the elected leaders of countries with whom we disagreed, Mossadeq in Iran and Allende in Chile, example. The end results have not been fortuitous.

When and how will this all end? I wonder if the dead we honor today were alive, might they not echo of one of this continent's most famous warriors, Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce, who, with his young men having mostly died in battle, and with Canada in sight, surrendered his forces, saying “I will fight no more, forever.”

We will of course fight, but I think it well also to consider the advice Abraham Lincoln gave us at Gettysburg: “It is for us the living, rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they have, thus far, so nobly carried on. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion.”

150 years ago, that cause was the preservation of the Union. Today, it may be the preservation of the concept of World Peace Through World Law, as it was in 1945.
 

eameece

New member
Some very bizarre things have been said in this thread about Memorial day.

A self-professed right-wing zealot has something to say about what's weird? :kookoo:

Memorial Day should be about those we honor from many fields, not just those who fight and die in (usually unnecessary) wars. All of us have the freedom to memorialize what we wish and think appropriate on this Day.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Memorial Day should be about those we honor from many fields, not just those who fight and die in (usually unnecessary) wars. All of us have the freedom to memorialize what we wish and think appropriate on this Day.

Couldn't you just have a different day to honor those people?
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Pete McCloskey said:
There could be no better time than Memorial Day to spend a few moments in quiet consideration of where and when we loose the dogs of war.

I disagree. This is Memorial Day, not Second Guess War Policy Day.

I would suggest that the People should invest more than a "few moments" on more than just one day of memorial to consider where and when we loose the dogs of war, but they shouldn't take any time from the day dedicated to honoring those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their nation.
 

Tambora

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Have you ever been to Switzerland?

When I lived there for several months back in the early 80s, I discovered that the majority of the male population was armed to the teeth with government issued assault rifles in their homes they were told keep follow compulsory military service.

Even the Swiss realize that sometimes liberty must be defended.
I have a youtube video on that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g
 
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