toldailytopic: Memorial Day Weekend: What does it represent for you?

[Ps82]

At some point, liberty is just a word. [See "Johnny Got His Gun."] What liberties exactly have the soldiers gained for us? How do I know that I have those liberties? How can I measure how much liberty I have?

Elohiym, if you would have died in Kuwait, all that you would have died for is an empty, hollow word. That's it. The sound. Politicians would have sat around laughing about you: "Elohiym died for 'liberty!' Oh, how convenient! Now we can tell everyone that the war was worth it. We'll tell them that Elohiym died for liberty, and they'll never be able to prove us wrong!" :nono:

When it comes to war ... follow the money trail. Money buys a lot of power. Men, who want power, need money, territory, and foot soldiers.

Men, wanting power ... manipulate people with propaganda... whether it be religious or political. Follow the trail of money and the indoctrinated zealots, and you'll find an enemy.

To what countries do billions of American tax dollars flow annually (in the form of pay-offs and bribes for peace)? Does our money go to help the people of those countries ... or do their corrupt leaders use our funds to gain power over their own people? On whom is it that the rich and powerful individuals of the world are putting their money? What is the ideology of those rich and powerful individuals? Where are the zealots crying the loudest today?

Find these and you've found your enemy! The hearts of men are bent on rising above God's power... They want power over the lives of other men ... and do not want the true God as the the LORD over their lives. That's the same issue found in the Garden of Eden ... to rise above God ... and to defy God's plans for them... but now ... our hearts are even more perverted with cruelty and evil. Satan has a field day manipulating and working among those who reject God.

I agree with other posters that there will be no lasting peace in this imperfect world ... so until then nations must fight for their freedom and their beliefs... cause the opposite is captivity and submitting to the beliefs of others imposed upon them.

But I figure that my ideas are not being read or considered on this thread today.

 

[Sherman]

Why should we commemorate people who were forced to kill other people? We shouldn't celebrate that. We rightfully should condemn the government that "forced them." Not that the government could have forced them. They could have refused to fight and faced imprisonment. They could have fled the country.

Your words are repugnant to those who have served like myself. I served ten years. How many years have you been in the service? Hmmm?

Did your grandfather smack you in the mouth for that? lain:

He should have smacked Trad in the chops for his smart mouth.

In the OT, when Israel killed her enemies [God's idea], they celebrated ..... The enemies of the Lord will be put to death in the Day of the Lord. Is God against killing? I don't think so ..........

I quite agree with the sentiments of this post. There is a time to heal, but there also a time to kill the enemy. Molly coddling terrorists just doesn't cut it.

Irrelevant to your original point regarding the motivation of those who serve.

My motive for serving was love of country. My son is serving with the same motive in mind. He believes in what he is doing. America does have some pretty severe problems, but when looking at other countries out there, America looks awfully good. Those are my son's words. He's been to other countries and seen what goes on there.

 

[Granite]

Perhaps Granite, on this Memorial Day you might consider keeping your cynicism to yourself?

Oh, that's right: let's just consider unnecessary bloodshed as a job well done, salute the flag, and cheer-cheer-cheer.

Bull.

We've spent what--three, four, five, how many wars wasting men in these little adventures?

I stand by my word, and dismiss anyone who thinks their death was justly bought in a righteous conflict. These men were wasted. I'd hang the thugs who sent them there.

 

[Skavau]

Why should we commemorate people who were forced to kill other people? We shouldn't celebrate that. We rightfully should condemn the government that "forced them." Not that the government could have forced them. They could have refused to fight and faced imprisonment. They could have fled the country.

I find all this talk by you on innocents exceedingly obfuscating and exceptionally disgusting. This is from the man that fantasizes about a platonist fascist state that would control everyone's lives from birth until death and eradicate the very point of existence. To hear you talk about innocence on the knowledge of what you actually support is revolting.

And that's all I have to say there.

How many women and children do you think died in the subsequent invasion? Also, why is it so necessary for people to kill each other in order to resolve their differences? Why can't we all just get along?

What is this babble? If the anti-war movement had been listened to then Saddam Hussein would have abolished an independent state and dissolved it into Iraq to become a new province. You make the mistake of considering Saddam Hussein a rational man and one who could be convinced through diplomacy alone to calm down.

 

[Town Heretic]

Oh, that's right: let's just consider unnecessary bloodshed as a job well done, salute the flag, and cheer-cheer-cheer.

Bull.

We've spent what--three, four, five, how many wars wasting men in these little adventures?

I stand by my word, and dismiss anyone who thinks their death was justly bought in a righteous conflict. These men were wasted. I'd hang the thugs who sent them there.

Then celebrate the soldiers who died liberating Europe in WWII if you have problems with more recent conflicts. To my mind, we're honoring the sacrifice of those who put life and safety at risk for their country. That their country didn't always use their sacrifice to an end worthy of them is a separate issue.

 

[rocketman]

Oh, that's right: let's just consider unnecessary bloodshed as a job well done, salute the flag, and cheer-cheer-cheer.

Bull.

We've spent what--three, four, five, how many wars wasting men in these little adventures?

I stand by my word, and dismiss anyone who thinks their death was justly bought in a righteous conflict. These men were wasted. I'd hang the thugs who sent them there.

It is unfortunate that yourself and others like you on this thread have no concept of Honor, Duty or Country, you do not deserve the freedom in which you stand but, yet those that serve, and have served in the Armed Forces still provide it. Memorial Day is not to argue whether a conflict is just or not but, to honor those that have had the fortitude to serve in your stead. You should be ashamed, though I know you are not, and that is what is truly pathetic. We can agree that some of the conflicts our military has been forced to take part in was a waste but, again memorial day is to honor their service not the idiots who sent them there.

 

[eameece]

We have people in this country who are willing to give all for it. They have more courage than I can even imagine.

But we also have a lot of people who are afraid, in certain ways. We all have some fears. I wonder if we have enough people in America who have the courage to question their ideologies. Are you guys here willing to question yours, prominent among them here being the two leading current deceptions and falsehoods in our country? Namely, Fundamentalist religion, and free market economics? Are you willing to question these nostrums, these shibboleths; or is all you can do to make a sarcastic reply and ask me if I can question mine? If we have a country in which some people are willing to die for it, but one in which many others are not willing to question their ideas, what kind of a country is it? A country of blind people leading their soldiers into blind battles?

And I think when our country is mature, Memorial Day's meaning will be broadened to honor all of our ancestors, especially those who have passed on, who helped to contribute to our lives today, and who help make us who we are now. Soldiers yes, who are willing to risk everything for our country; but also those worthy of honor who make peace, as well as those who fight the wars we so stupidly get ourselves involved in way too often. And those who have created the arts and the sciences of our culture; those who designed and built our cities, and those who preserved nature, and so on.

Who would you honor, besides our soldiers?

 

[rocketman]

We have people in this country who are willing to give all for it. They have more courage than I can even imagine.

But we also have a lot of people who are afraid, in certain ways. We all have some fears. I wonder if we have enough people in America who have the courage to question their ideologies. Are you guys here willing to question yours, prominent among them here being the two leading current deceptions and falsehoods in our country? Namely, Fundamentalist religion, and free market economics? Are you willing to question these nostrums, these shibboleths; or is all you can do to make a sarcastic reply and ask me if I can question mine? If we have a country in which some people are willing to die for it, but one in which many others are not willing to question their ideas, what kind of a country is it? A country of blind people leading their soldiers into blind battles?

And I think when our country is mature, Memorial Day's meaning will be broadened to honor all of our ancestors, especially those who have passed on, who helped to contribute to our lives today, and who help make us who we are now. Soldiers yes, who are willing to risk everything for our country; but also those worthy of honor who make peace, as well as those who fight the wars we so stupidly get ourselves involved in way too often. And those who have created the arts and the sciences of our culture; those who designed and built our cities, and those who preserved nature, and so on.

Who would you honor, besides our soldiers?

If you want a day to honor your ideological heros than lobby your congressman for it eameece but, memorial day is not to honor civilians but, veterans of the armed services that have given everything so you can have the freedom to post on this forum.

Who would you honor, besides our soldiers?

Nobody on memorial day deserves honor except those soldiers that have fallen, come to think of it, your ideological heros might not exist without them either...

 

[eameece]

If you want a day to honor your ideological heros than lobby your congressman for it eameece but, memorial day is not to honor civilians but, veterans of the armed services that have given everything so you can have the freedom to post on this forum.

I honor them, but the idea that our freedom, or that the existence of other heroes, is due to them, is largely bogus. I thought about that years ago. Have most of our wars been about protecting our freedom? Would we have lost our freedom had we not fought those wars? I'm not so sure. Most of those wars have been either about Americans conquering others, or meddling in others' affairs. Possibly some of those wars were worth fighting; I'm not sure. But that fighting them saved our freedom, I don't think so. And if we had had more skilled diplomats, and others skilled at resolving disputes and problems, then most of those wars could have been avoided. That they were not, speaks of the immaturity of our nation. And those kinds of heroes are even more worth honoring, IMO. Richard Holbrook; there was a true hero.

What the late great historian Shelby Foote said about the Civil War, applies to most of them too. "If we were anything like the people we think we are, we would never have fought that war. But since we did, we have to call it the best war of all times. It's very American to do that." I agree with him wholeheartedly.

And Iraq? Panama? Vietnam? Spanish-American? 1812? Mexican? There was no justification for those wars whatsoever. They protected no American's freedom at all. Soldiers deserve honor for their courage and dedication. But many of them are fools, and if they didn't go to war, then "Caesar" would have to stand alone.

 

[rocketman]

I honor them, but the idea that our freedom, or that the existence of other heroes, is due to them, is largely bogus. I thought about that years ago. Have most of our wars been about protecting our freedom? Would we have lost our freedom had we not fought those wars? I'm not so sure. Most of those wars have been either about Americans conquering others, or meddling in others' affairs. Possibly some of those wars were worth fighting; I'm not sure. But that fighting them saved our freedom, I don't think so. And if we had had more skilled diplomats, and others skilled at resolving disputes and problems, then most of those wars could have been avoided. That they were not, speaks of the immaturity of our nation. And those kinds of heroes are even more worth honoring, IMO. Richard Holbrook; there was a true hero.

What the late great historian Shelby Foote said about the Civil War, applies to most of them too. "If we were anything like the people we think we are, we would never have fought that war. But since we did, we have to call it the best war of all times. It's very American to do that." I agree with him wholeheartedly.

And Iraq? Panama? Vietnam? Spanish-American? 1812? Mexican? There was no justification for those wars whatsoever. They protected no American's freedom at all. Soldiers deserve honor for their courage and dedication. But many of them are fools, and if they didn't go to war, then "Caesar" would have to stand alone.

Save your dissertation for somebody who will listen to that bilge. The fact that you live in a free nation is because there is somebody there to defend it. Though I know all you milk toast liberal types think that we (the world) can all live in peace and harmony, that is pure fantasy, or wishful thinking at best, but definitely not reality.

 

[eameece]

Save your dissertation for somebody who will listen to that bilge.

You think I am writing just for you?

The fact that you live in a free nation is because there is somebody there to defend it.

I proved that those who fought and died, mostly did not make it possible for us to live in a free nation. It's another proposition to say we can be free without any army at all. Not sure I buy that one.

Though I know all you milk toast liberal types think that we (the world) can all live in peace and harmony, that is pure fantasy, or wishful thinking at best, but definitely not reality.

I'm not saying it is yet. But it can be made into a reality. Fantasies can set you free. You can build on them. That's how anything and everything gets done.

 

[Buzzword]

Well, I should have expected animosity on any thread even obliquely mentioning the military, but dang.

Honor who thou wilt, and keep thy mouth shut if another would honor someone else.

If "the liberals" were really as radical as many on TOL portray them, we'd see huge protests to dismantle the military entirely.

If "the conservatives" were really as radical as many on TOL portray them, we'd see huge protests calling for invasions of Mexico, Canada, Venezuela, France, Russia.........

Fact is, only a very miniscule part of the population actually lives up to the caricatures we construct of any and all opposition, and most of them are (thankfully) living in isolation and have zero impact on the actions of the country as a whole.


It's been a very happy day for me.
I went to two barbecues today.
One hosted by my church, where I gained great encouragement in my current trials.
The other with friends, combined with hours of tackle football out in the country.

I realize this site was basically designed for arguments, but can we not at least make an effort to focus on the positive, on what connects us as people rather than what drives us apart?

Especially on what is supposed to be a CELEBRATION DAY.

 

[rocketman]

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us." George Orwell

 

[eameece]

I realize this site was basically designed for arguments, but can we not at least make an effort to focus on the positive, on what connects us as people rather than what drives us apart?

Especially on what is supposed to be a CELEBRATION DAY.

No, but nice thought.

I honor those who "fought for my freedom" by using it.

 

[Traditio]

I find all this talk by you on innocents exceedingly obfuscating and exceptionally disgusting. This is from the man that fantasizes about a platonist fascist state that would control everyone's lives from birth until death and eradicate the very point of existence. To hear you talk about innocence on the knowledge of what you actually support is revolting.

And that's all I have to say there.

I advocate the idea of the [Platonic] Fascist State out of respect for human life. In my opinion, a human life is so valuable, so absolutely precious that his/her care shouldn't be left to chance. Each one should be cultivated and cared for so very carefully and painstakingly in order that he or she can live as well as humanly possible.

What is this babble? If the anti-war movement had been listened to then Saddam Hussein would have abolished an independent state and dissolved it into Iraq to become a new province. You make the mistake of considering Saddam Hussein a rational man and one who could be convinced through diplomacy alone to calm down.

I think that there is some truth in this, but I also think that it's bizarre that the answer is "war." I'll start another thread on the matter.

 

[Granite]

It is unfortunate that yourself and others like you on this thread have no concept of Honor, Duty or Country...

Oh, nonsense! What is this fascist insistence that any critic of war is somehow a traitor? Shame on you.

...you do not deserve the freedom in which you stand...

I see, and you do, because you support the military industrial complex? Nice racket.

I denounce any bug-wit who claims that a critic of war is somehow unfit to enjoy the liberty to do so.

 

[lightbringer]

I advocate the idea of the [Platonic] Fascist State out of respect for human life. In my opinion, a human life is so valuable, so absolutely precious that his/her care shouldn't be left to chance. Each one should be cultivated and cared for so very carefully and painstakingly in order that he or she can live as well as humanly possible.

A human life is so valuable...absolutely precious... that he should be cultivated...cared for very carefully...so that he can live as well as...

his chains will allow...take away the struggle for existence, the very effort he must put forth to accomplish and you will have 1. a well mannered slave, plotting behind your back for your overthrow, 2. a creature that will wither and die!

I think that there is some truth in this, but I also think that it's bizarre that the answer is "war." I'll start another thread on the matter.

As long as there are men that are willing to take away individual freedoms for any reason, there will be conflict, as long as there is conflict where men can not compromise, there will be war!

Those men that we honor today are those that stood up for that freedom at any cost, whether it is the freedoms of Americans or one of our neighbors in the world.

If you truly believe in what you have said about life being precious, then refrain on this one day of the year from speaking irreverently of those that gave theirs for the ideal of freedom, show your [Platonic] Fascist State respect of human life towards your countrymen!

You can continue your Platonic ramblings tomorrow.

Respect is only given to one that respects others.

 

[Traditio]

As long as there are men that are willing to take away individual freedoms for any reason, there will be conflict, as long as there is conflict where men can not compromise, there will be war!

Those men that we honor today are those that stood up for that freedom at any cost, whether it is the freedoms of Americans or one of our neighbors in the world.

What freedoms did they die for? How do I know that I have them? I note that marijuana is illegal. I notice that there are numerous restrictions on free speech. I note that the Patriot Act has just been given an extension. I note that the courts recently have expanded the authority of the police. I also note that soldiers (who supposedly died for freedom) don't even have the freedom to refuse to die for "freedom."

How are Americans (which is a major military power) more free than the Swiss (who are not)?

They didn't die for freedom. They died for a word that covered up the corporate ambitions of evil, belligerent men.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Eight more hours on my paycheck.

 

[lightbringer]

What freedoms did they die for? How do I know that I have them?

Because you have the freedom to post your beliefs on this forum?

I note that marijuana is illegal.

You can still make the choice of smoking it (albeit an illegal action in the eyes of the majority), but by reducing your intake or ceasing your activities with it, you will find out that your ideas will change. You are using your Platonic ramblings as a way to justify your use....good luck.

I wounder if Plato was a head? Maybe you should start a thread on that! "Plato, flower child or addict"?

I notice that there are numerous restrictions on free speech. I note that the Patriot Act has just been given an extension. I note that the courts recently have expanded the authority of the police.

Also actions by people that will trade freedom for the hopes of security...when in fact deserve neither.

I also note that soldiers (who supposedly died for freedom) don't even have the freedom to refuse to die for "freedom."

Your wrong, you can refuse to serve, there is no longer a draft and soldiers can refuse to fight.

Men have ideals for the future, some which they hold dear enough to fight for, if your ideals are important you have to ask yourself, how important, to what extent will I stand for this ideal, will I fold when threatened with jail/injury or am I willing to make the ultimate sacrifice? Where do you stand philosopher?

We will have to pick this up at another time, I am preparing to jump on my Harley and ride to the War Memorial to pay my respects to men that I knew and served next too, those that did not return but where willing to fight in order that you could spend time whining about marijuana being illegal.