Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

Right Divider

Body part
That does not cover-up your ignorance of what you said here:

You accuse me of a repeated misuse of "in Christ before me." I quoted verses which demonstrate that the words "in Christ" speak of the Body being in Christ:
"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).​

ONE BODY IN CHRIST. See that? How long will you IGNORE THAT? How long will you continue to accuse me of a REPEATED MISUSE OF 'IN CHRIST BEFORE ME'?

If I misused the phrase and since you are bold enough to accuse me of doing that then you must know what the words "in Christ" mean in that verse.

What do they mean?
In Christ with reference to what happened BEFORE the body of Christ was established is simply THEIR relationship with Christ regarding the kingdom of Christ. It's not that hard to understand, but you prefer to misuse it to try to force it to agree with your misconceptions about it.

You also misuse Paul in an attempt to make his scripture retroactive. It is not.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
In Christ with reference to what happened BEFORE the body of Christ was established is simply THEIR relationship with Christ regarding the kingdom of Christ.

Where is your evidence?

The evidence I have quoted denies your idea. Paul wrote:

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).​
 

Right Divider

Body part
Where is your evidence?

The evidence I have quoted denies your idea. Paul wrote:
"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).​
Prior to the revelation given to Paul, the kingdom was Jew AND Gentile, but in the body there is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek. When did this change?
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Prior to the revelation given to Paul, the kingdom was Jew AND Gentile, but in the body there is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek. When did this change?

Just as I thought. You did not present any evidence which supports your made up meaning of the words "in Christ." Now tell me when the kingdom came into existence and that kingdom was made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

The Body of Christ is made up of the believing remnant out of Israel and the believing Gentiles and Paul makes that clear here:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

This is so simple but in order for you to cling to your errors you just make up a meaning for the words "in Christ" and you just make up a second believing remnant out of Israel which can't be found in the Scriptures!

Somehow you have tricked your mind into believing that your your ideas are based on the Scriptures.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Just as I thought. You did not present any evidence which supports your made up meaning of the words "in Christ." Now tell me when the kingdom came into existence and that kingdom was made up of both Jews and Gentiles.
A LONG time ago... the kingdom of Israel is ancient. Solomon was one of the kings of that kingdom. I'm surprised that you don't know about these things.

The Body of Christ is made up of the believing remnant out of Israel and the believing Gentiles and Paul makes that clear here:
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

This is so simple but in order for you to cling to your errors you just make up a meaning for the words "in Christ" and you just make up a second believing remnant out of Israel which can't be found in the Scriptures!
Isaiah foretold of the gathering of this second believing remnant of which you are completely unaware.

Isa 11:11 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.


 

Jerry Shugart

New member
A LONG time ago... the kingdom of Israel is ancient. Solomon was one of the kings of that kingdom. I'm surprised that you don't know about these things.

Don't you even know that kingdom was not even existence in the first century and that explains why the Twelve asked the Lord Jesus if He was going to restore Israel at that time (Acts 1:6)?

Perhaps you actually think that the kingdom has already been restored to Israel?

Isaiah foretold of the gathering of this second believing remnant of which you are completely unaware.

Isa 11:11 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.


Are you saying that happened in the first century because the your made-up ideas depend on the idea that there were two believing remnants out of Israel in the first century.

I have already demonstrated that all of the believers in the first century when Paul wrote his epistles were baptized into the Body of Christ but once again you refuse to believe it because you put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what they actually say.

Paul's epistle which is traditionally known as "the First Epistle to the Corinthians" was not just addressed to those of the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​

The words found in this epistle are addressed to every single believer who lived at the time when it was written. John Nelson Darby, known as the father of modern dispensationalism, understood that to be true, writing the following:

"He addresses the assembly of God at Corinth, adding a character (the application of which is evident when we consider the contents of the epistle) 'sanctified in Christ Jesus.' Afterwards the universality of the application of the doctrine and instructions of the epistle, and of its authority over all Christians, wherever they might be, is brought forward in this address" (John Nelson Darby, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).​

With these things in mind, we can understand what Paul said later in the same epistle applied to every single believer when the epistle was written:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).​

When Paul used the words "are we ALL baptized into one Body" that can only mean that the Twelve were included and therefore they are members of the Body of Christ. But you would rather deny Paul's words and then tell everyone who will listen that even though there are 21 epistles which contain doctrine for the Body of Christ you say that there are only 13 which do!
 

Right Divider

Body part
Don't you even know that kingdom was not even existence in the first century and that explains why the Twelve asked the Lord Jesus if He was going to restore Israel at that time (Acts 1:6)?

Perhaps you actually think that the kingdom has already been restored to Israel?
Even though the kingdom of Israel was under Roman rule, that did not mean that it completely ceased to exist.

No, Jerry, I do NOT "think that the kingdom has already been restored". I know that you think that I'm an idiot, but your silly accusations still get a bit tiring.

Are you saying that happened in the first century because the your made-up ideas depend on the idea that there were two believing remnants out of Israel in the first century.
There was ONE believing remnant in the first century. How do you manage to read so many bizarre things into what others say? You're pathetic.

I have already demonstrated that all of the believers in the first century when Paul wrote his epistles were baptized into the Body of Christ but once again you refuse to believe it because you put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what they actually say.
The ONE body is separate from the believing remnant of Israel. That you continuously try to mash them is your own fault.

Paul's epistle which is traditionally known as "the First Epistle to the Corinthians" was not just addressed to those of the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":
"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​
Don't ignore ALL of what the verse says.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
There was ONE believing remnant in the first century.

So you finally admit the truth. And we can see that ONE BELIEVING REMNANT was made a part of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
(Eph.2:13-16).​

There was one remnant of believing Jews in the first century and all of the Jews who made up that remnant, including the Twelve, were made members of the Body of Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Don't ignore ALL of what the verse says.

Even though you ignored everything in the passage except what you highlighted I will quote Cornelius Stam's statement to answer what you have highlighted:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​

Now perhaps you will step up to the plate and actually address what Cornelius Stam wrote.
 

Right Divider

Body part
So you finally admit the truth.
Another FALSE accusation by Jerry. Don't you tire of being a liar? I have never said otherwise.

The REMNANT of Israel remains the REMNANT of Israel. There is no need nor indication that that ever changed.

And we can see that ONE BELIEVING REMNANT was made a part of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
(Eph.2:13-16).​

There was one remnant of believing Jews in the first century and all of the Jews who made up that remnant, including the Twelve, were made members of the Body of Christ.
No, Jerry ... this does NOT mean that the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes have been striped of their commission to judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL as they sit on THEIR TWELVE thrones. You and J.C. O'Hair and all of your other models can say whatever you want. Paul's revelation of the one body is NOT retroactive to the commission of the TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Even though you ignored everything in the passage except what you highlighted I will quote Cornelius Stam's statement to answer what you have highlighted:
"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​

Now perhaps you will step up to the plate and actually address what Cornelius Stam wrote.
Cornelius Stam was a great man, but confused on a few things (thinking and teaching that the body of Christ is under the "umbrella" of the new covenant).

That you practically worship him and others is your own personal problem.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Another FALSE accusation by Jerry. Don't you tire of being a liar? I have never said otherwise.

Your mistaken ideas depend on there being two different believing remnants out of Israel in the first century. But you are so confused you can't even realize that!!!

The REMNANT of Israel remains the REMNANT of Israel. There is no need nor indication that that ever changed.

So when Paul speaks of two groups of believers in the following passage one of them is not the believing remnant out of Israel?:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Who are the two groups spoken by Paul here?

And are these Jews of whom Paul speaks of in the following passage not members of the believing remnant out of Israel?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).​

Are the Jews spoken of in that verse members of the believing remnant out of Israel? I guess this is your answer:

The REMNANT of Israel remains the REMNANT of Israel. There is no need nor indication that that ever changed.

You are so uninformed and ignorant that you don't know whether you are coming or going. Then to make it worse you call those who do not agree with your dumb ideas "liars"!

So anyone who thinks that they want to attempt to discuss anything with Right Divider they bettter be ready to hear nothing but nonsense and then be prepared to be called a liar!
 

Right Divider

Body part
Your mistaken ideas depend on there being two different believing remnants out of Israel in the first century. But you are so confused you can't even realize that!!!
There is ONE believe REMNANT. I don't even think that you know what the word REMNANT means.

You also continue to use BOGUS terms like "out of Israel".
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
There is ONE believe REMNANT.

You did not answer my question. Who are the two groups of which Paul speaks of here?:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
(Eph.2:13-16).​

When Paul uses the words "both" and "twain" in this passage who is referring to?

Let me give you a little hint:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).​
 

Right Divider

Body part
You did not answer my question. Who are the two groups of which Paul speaks of here?:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
(Eph.2:13-16).​

When Paul uses the words "both" and "twain" in this passage who is referring to?

Let me give you a little hint:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).​
The REMNANT of Israel remain in THEIR calling.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
The REMNANT of Israel remain in THEIR calling.

You failed to answer my simple question. What two groups are being referred to in the following passage written by Paul?:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

When Paul uses the words "both" and "twain" in this passage who is referring to?

Let me give you a little hint:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).

You can continue to run and hide from the truth and you can continue to call me a liar but the truth remains--the believing remnant out of Israel were made members of the Body of Christ!
 

Right Divider

Body part
You failed to answer my simple question. What two groups are being referred to in the following passage written by Paul?:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

When Paul uses the words "both" and "twain" in this passage who is referring to?

Let me give you a little hint:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).

You can continue to run and hide from the truth and you can continue to call me a liar but the truth remains--the believing remnant out of Israel were made members of the Body of Christ!
The way you "interpret" scripture, you're going to be a Universalist soon.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
The way you "interpret" scripture, you're going to be a Universalist soon.

That doesn't answer my question.

The REMNANT of Israel remain in THEIR calling.

So the Jews mentioned in the following verse were not the remnant?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

These Jews were not members of the commonwealth of Israel before they were baptized into the Body of Christ?

And their "calling" is not the same as the Gentile members of the Body of Christ?
 

JudgeRightly

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That doesn't answer my question.

So the Jews mentioned in the following verse were not the remnant?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

No. The Jews Paul is talking about in that passage are not part of the Remnant. They are Jews who have become part of the Body of Christ.

Post Acts 9, no Jew could enter into the covenant of circumcision as before. Yet those who had prior to Acts 9 didn't die when Israel was cut off, yet were still living. Those Jews are the Remnant. The Jews in the Body of Christ, where there is no distinction between Jew or gentile, are not.

These Jews were not members of the commonwealth of Israel before they were baptized into the Body of Christ?

The Remnant died off when the final Jew who entered into a relationship with God through the New Covenant died. If you mean to say that they became part of the Body of Christ, aka Christians, when they entered into that relationship, you would be wrong. But if you mean to say that they were baptised into His body, and became believers, and received salvation, then you would be correct.

And their "calling" is not the same

The Remnant's calling was not the same, no. The group called the Remnant no longer exists, and will not again until the Great Tribulation.

as the Gentile members of the Body of Christ?

The Jews saved after Paul became part of the Body of Christ, where there is no longer any distinction between Jew or Gentile.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
No. The Jews Paul is talking about in that passage are not part of the Remnant. They are Jews who have become part of the Body of Christ.

Before becoming a part of the Body of Christ they were previously members of the commonwealth of Israel because we know that at one time they were under the law of Moses (Gal.3:23-25). Only those of Israel were under the law of Moses.
 
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