Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

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As you have proved over and over you wouldn't know the obvious if it hit you right between the eyes. The fact is obvious that the first century Jewish believers had a heavenly calling just like all the other members of the Body of Christ. Here we see two different passages from the Scriptures which speak of a "heavenly calling":
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel"
(Heb.12:22-24).​

Only those in the Body of Christ have a heavenly calling so those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ.
Us gentiles who are saved by grace through faith apart from law and the covenants need the "receive" the Hebrew epistles?

You're a hoot Jerry.

Do we need to "receive" James 1:1?

We can certainly benefit from reading them IN THEIR CONTEXT. But not from blending and blurring them with the Pauline epistles like you do.
 

Jerry Shugart

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Us gentiles who are saved by grace through faith apart from law and the covenants need the "receive" the Hebrew epistles?

You are obviously unaware that those who lived under the law were also saved in the same way as the Gentiles.:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
(Ro.4:16).​

When are you going to start reading the Bible?

Your teaching isn't worth a hoot!
 

Right Divider

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You are obviously unaware that those who lived under the law were also saved in the same way as the Gentiles.:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
(Ro.4:16).​

When are you going to start reading the Bible?

Your teaching isn't worth a hoot!
Peter says that they SHALL be save the same way....

Act 15:11 KJV But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

You are a Bible blender that does NOT actually right divide at all.
 

Jerry Shugart

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Peter says that they SHALL be save the same way....

Act 15:11 KJV But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

You are a Bible blender that does NOT actually right divide at all.

So when Peter wrote that He wasn't yet saved? Even though he had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8)? Are you really this ignorant?

Here is the correct translation:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11; NIV).​

According to your crazy ideas Peter wasn't even saved despite the fact that three verse earlier He said that he had received the Holy Spirit.

Now are you going to deny that those who lived under the law were saved on the principle of grace and their salvation was received by faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​
 

JudgeRightly

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So when Peter wrote that He wasn't yet saved? Even though he had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8)? Are you really this ignorant?

Here is the correct translation:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11; NIV).​

According to your crazy ideas Peter wasn't even saved despite the fact that three verse earlier He said that he had received the Holy Spirit.

Now are you going to deny that those who lived under the law were saved on the principle of grace and their salvation was received by faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

The correct translation of the word is "to be saved."



But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” - Acts 15:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts15:11&version=NKJV

Morphology: V-ANP

Part of Speech:
- V: Verb

Grammatical Categories:
- Tense A: Aorist
- Mood N: Infinitive
- Voice P: Passive

At the time he said those words, he was not yet saved. However, when he died, that is when he was saved. His words were of an as of that moment future salvation.
 

Right Divider

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So when Peter wrote that He wasn't yet saved? Even though he had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8)? Are you really this ignorant?

Here is the correct translation:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
(Acts 15:11; NIV).​

According to your crazy ideas Peter wasn't even saved despite the fact that three verse earlier He said that he had received the Holy Spirit.

Now are you going to deny that those who lived under the law were saved on the principle of grace and their salvation was received by faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​
Ah, Jerry the great and perfect Bible corrector.

Perhaps you can "fix" this one too.

1Pe 1:5 KJV Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

Jerry Shugart

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Ah, Jerry the great and perfect Bible corrector.

The Bible says what it says and as usual you refuse to believe what it says if it contradicts your silly beliefs.

Perhaps you can "fix" this one too.

1Pe 1:5 KJV Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So you are quoting that verse to try to prove that Peter wasn't yet saved even though he had received the Holy Spirit. You prove over and over that you don't have a clue because anyone with the slightest amount of spiritual discernment knows that anyone who has received the Holy Spirit is saved. I do not need to "fix" anything because the same "salvation" which Peter places in the future is the same exact salvation which Paul also places in the future:

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Ro.13:11).​

Now tell me why you don't think Peter was saved at the point of time when he said the following:

"After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 10:7-11).​

I showed you that Peter had received the Holy Spirit at that point in time but despite that you are still trying to prove that he wasn't saved then, proving once again that your Spiritual I.Q. is practically ZERO!

All you have ever proved to me is that you put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

Even worse it that no matter how many times you are proven wrong you cling to your false beliefs and that is because your final authority is not the Bible! I pity you because the only people who will be saved are those who actually "believe God" and not the fables invented by men:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
(Ro.4:3).​
 

Right Divider

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The Bible says what it says and as usual you refuse to believe what it says if it contradicts your silly beliefs.

So you are quoting that verse to try to prove that Peter wasn't yet saved even though he had received the Holy Spirit. You prove over and over that you don't have a clue because anyone with the slightest amount of spiritual discernment knows that anyone who has received the Holy Spirit is saved. I do not need to "fix" anything because the same "salvation" which Peter places in the future is the same exact salvation which Paul also places in the future:

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Ro.13:11).​

Now tell me why you don't think Peter was saved at the point of time when he said the following:
"After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 10:7-11).​

I showed you that Peter had received the Holy Spirit at that point in time but despite that you are still trying to prove that he wasn't saved then, proving once again that your Spiritual I.Q. is practically ZERO!

All you have ever proved to me is that you put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

Even worse it that no matter how many times you are proven wrong you cling to your false beliefs and that is because your final authority is not the Bible! I pity you because the only people who will be saved are those who actually "believe God" and not the fables invented by men:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
(Ro.4:3).​
There are different types of salvation, but you already knew that.

That you always feel the need to correct the Bible is amusing.

No doubt that you have a "hotline" to God that the KJB translators did not.
 

Jerry Shugart

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There are different types of salvation, but you already knew that.

You are so ignorant about salvation that you argued that even though Peter had received the Holy Spirit he was not yet saved!

That you always feel the need to correct the Bible is amusing.

The fact that you think that the KJV contains no errors prove that you know very little about what the Scriptures actually reveal.

At one place the KJV places the first day of unleavened bread happening before the Passover despite the facyt that the passover always preceded that day. Adsusual, you are clueless!

And you have already proven that you are clueless when you tried to prove that Peter's salvation remained in the future despite the fact that I pointed out to you that He had already received the Holy Spirit!

Put on your dunce cap and go sit in the corner!
 

Right Divider

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You are so ignorant about salvation that you argued that even though Peter had received the Holy Spirit he was not yet saved!
King Saul received the Holy Spirit many years prior.

1Sa 10:6 KJV And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

The fact that you think that the KJV contains no errors prove that you know very little about what the Scriptures actually reveal.
I believe that the KJB translators were better than you.

At one place the KJV places the first day of unleavened bread happening before the Passover despite the facyt that the passover always preceded that day. Adsusual, you are clueless!
Nope, just misunderstanding on your part. You probably think that Acts 12:4 KJB is also incorrect.

And you have already proven that you are clueless when you tried to prove that Peter's salvation remained in the future despite the fact that I pointed out to you that He had already received the Holy Spirit!
Receiving the Holy Spirit it not synonymous with salvation.

Put on your dunce cap and go sit in the corner!
:rotfl:

Repent of your scripture twisting Jerry.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Receiving the Holy Spirit it not synonymous with salvation.

According to your ridiculous ideas when Peter said the following he wasn't yet saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously!
 

Right Divider

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According to your ridiculous ideas when Peter said the following he wasn't yet saved:
"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously!
Why did you ignore Samuel where King Saul received the Holy Spirit? Are you declaring that King Saul was saved?

Did not the apostle in Acts 2 already believe and have eternal life?

The giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was for POWER to do things that they themselves could not otherwise do.

Act 1:6-8 KJV When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

THEY were able to speak in foreign languages at Pentecost because of this POWER.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
King Saul received the Holy Spirit many years prior.

1Sa 10:6 KJV And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

The Holy Spirit "came upon him" but that doesn't mean that the he received the Holy Spirit:

"And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly" (1 Sam.11:6).​

When Peter confessed to the Lord Jesus that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Mt.16:16) he was already born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
(1 Jn.5:1-5).​

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:10-13).​
 

Right Divider

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The Holy Spirit "came upon Him" but that doesn't mean that the he received the Holy Spirit:
"And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly" (1 Sam.11:6).​

When Peter confessed to the Lord Jesus that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Mt.16:16) he was already born of God :

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
(1 Jn.5:1-5).​
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
(Jn.1:10-13).
So, in other words, Peter was NOT saved at Pentecost when he received the POWER of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for admitting that.
 

Jerry Shugart

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So, in other words, Peter was NOT saved at Pentecost when he received the POWER of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for admitting that.

He was saved before Pentecost and I never said that he was saved at Pentecost.

If you think I said that he was saved at Pentecost then please quote me saying that!

Do you now admit that Peter was saved by the time of Acts 15 or are you going to continue to deny that he was saved by then?
 

Right Divider

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So when Peter wrote that He wasn't yet saved? Even though he had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8)? Are you really this ignorant?

He was saved before Pentecost and I never said that he was saved at Pentecost.

If you think I said that he was saved at Pentecost then please quote me saying that!
That quote above makes it sound like you are equating receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved.

Do you now admit that Peter was saved by the time of Acts 15 or are you going to continue to deny that he was saved by then?
Why didn't Peter say that the gentiles would be saved LIKE THEM, instead of the other way around?

Wasn't Peter saved before the gentiles that are referred to there?
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
That quote above makes it sound like you are equating receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved.

So are you still arguing that even though Peter received the Holy Spirit he wasn't yet saved and even though he said the following?:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith"
(Acts 15:8-9).​

Your spiritual I. Q. is ZERO!

Why didn't Peter say that the gentiles would be saved LIKE THEM, instead of the other way around?

Because some of the Jews who believed were saved before Paul preached a gospel to the Gentiles.

Wasn't Peter saved before the gentiles that are referred to there?

Again, When Peter confessed to the Lord Jesus that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Mt.16:16) he was already born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
(1 Jn.5:1-5).​

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
(Jn.1:10-13).​
 

Right Divider

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So are you still arguing that even though Peter received the Holy Spirit he wasn't yet saved and even though he said the following?:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith"
(Acts 15:8-9).​

Your spiritual I. Q. is ZERO!
Again, confusing the future salvation that Peter speaks of and receiving of the POWER of the Holy Spirit.

You're a mess Jerry.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Again, confusing the future salvation that Peter speaks of and receiving of the POWER of the Holy Spirit.

So Peter wasn't saved when He believed the Lord Jesus even though the Lord said the following?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
(Jn.6:63).​

And what about the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to those who lived under the law?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"
(Jn.5:24).

The words in "bold" are in the "present"tense so a Jew who lived under the law the moment when he believed and he was saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​
 

JudgeRightly

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That's not even a complete sentence!

He's saying YOU'RE confusing things.

Stop accusing him of being ignorant, you hypocrite.

So are you going to still argue that Peter was not even saved by the time of Acts 15?

Was Peter not saved by the "good news" about Christ when he believed the "good news"spoken by Paul here?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

Peter was saved upon his death.

Paul was saved on the road to Damascus.

Why the difference? because of the covenant by which they were saved.
 
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