Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

JudgeRightly

Administrator
Staff member
Before becoming a part of the Body of Christ they were previously members of the commonwealth of Israel because we know that at one time they were under the law of Moses (Gal.3:23-25). Only those of Israel were under the law of Moses.

Incorrect. The Jews who were in Christ prior to Paul (Acts 9) WERE NOT incorporated into the Body of Christ. They already had salvation in Christ. They didn't need to be saved again...
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Incorrect. The Jews who were in Christ prior to Paul (Acts 9) WERE NOT incorporated into the Body of Christ. They already had salvation in Christ. They didn't need to be saved again...

No one said that they needed to be saved again. And you just completely ignored the evidence which I presented that proves that the believing remnant of Israel were indeed made members of the Body of Christ.

Can you not even understand that in the following passage Paul is speaking about the Jews who were at one time under the law of Moses and therefore were also at one time members of the commonwealth of Israel?:

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith"
(Gal.3:24).​

Only those who were members of the commonwealth of Israel lived under the law of Moses so Paul's words prove that the believing remnant out of Israel were members of the Body of Christ.

After all, Paul speaks of those who were " in Christ" before he was (Ro.16:7) and it is an easy thing to know what the words "in Christ" refer to because earlier in the same epistle Paul wrote the following:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another"
(Ro.12;5).​
 

JudgeRightly

Administrator
Staff member
No one said that they needed to be saved again. And you just completely ignored the evidence which I presented that proves that the believing remnant of Israel were indeed made members of the Body of Christ.

There is nothing in Galatians 3:23-25 that says those who were saved prior to Paul were saved into the "Body of Christ."

Those saved prior to Paul are "in Christ," but are not part of the "Body of Christ."

Can you not even understand that in the following passage Paul is speaking about the Jews who were at one time under the law of Moses and therefore were also at one time members of the commonwealth of Israel?:
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:24).​

"In Christ" is not necessarily "in the Body of Christ."

Only those who were members of the commonwealth of Israel lived under the law of Moses so Paul's words prove that the believing remnant out of Israel were members of the Body of Christ.

Nope. Paul's words only confirm that those saved prior to him are "in Christ." It says nothing about being in the "Body of Christ."

After all, Paul speaks of those who were " in Christ" before he was (Ro.16:7) and it is an easy thing to know what the words "in Christ" refer to because earlier in the same epistle Paul wrote the following:
"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12;5).​

Why? Because you say so?

"In Christ" does not necessarily mean "Body of Christ."

Jerry, you've probably been asked this before, but it's such an excellent question, I really feel it needs to be answered.

If those "in Christ" prior to Paul are part of the "Body of Christ," then... Why Paul? Why not just use the other 12 Apostles to go to the Gentiles?

Also... Why does Paul say "in me first" in 1 Timothy 1:16, if he was not the first one in the "Body of Christ"?

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. - 1 Timothy 1:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy1:16&version=NKJV
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
There is nothing in Galatians 3:23-25 that says those who were saved prior to Paul were saved into the "Body of Christ."

I quoted the verses to show that there were Jews in the Body of Christ who were previously under the law and therefore they were among the remnant of believers out of Israel. And here is exactly what happened to that remnant:

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
(Eph.2:14-16).​

This is not difficult to understand. Here Paul speaks of two groups. One group is the believing remnant out of Israel and the other group is the believing Gentiles. Both groups were made members of the Body of Christ.

That can only mean that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ along with all of the rest of the believing Jews.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
I quoted the verses to show that there were Jews in the Body of Christ who were previously under the law and therefore they were among the remnant of believers out of Israel. And here is exactly what happened to that remnant:

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
(Eph.2:14-16).​
no

Mat_19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
no

Mat_19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So?

Don't you know that beginning at the rapture and from then on those in the Body of Christ will always be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17)? So when He returns to the earth to set up His kingdom all of those in the Body will be with Him and they will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2).
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
So?

Both groups were made members of the Body of Christ.

That can only mean that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ along with all of the rest of the believing Jews.

the 12 will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel which you say they are not apart of
but you want it both ways .



Mat_19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
the 12 will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel which you say they are not apart of
but you want it both ways .

The TWELVE will be ABOVE the Jewish believers who will be on the earth during the Messianic kingdom because they will JUDGE those tribes. Those in the Body will likewise be ABOVE the Gentile believers because they will judge the Gentiles living on the earth.

It is a simple thing to prove that all of the believers on the face of the earth were made members of the Body of Christ by the time Paul wrote his epistles. Paul's epistle which is traditionally known as "the First Epistle to the Corinthians" was not just addressed to those of the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​

The words found in this epistle are addressed to every single believer who lived at the time when it was written--"with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

John Nelson Darby understood that to be true, writing the following:

"He addresses the assembly of God at Corinth, adding a character (the application of which is evident when we consider the contents of the epistle) 'sanctified in Christ Jesus.' Afterwards the universality of the application of the doctrine and instructions of the epistle, and of its authority over all Christians, wherever they might be, is brought forward in this address" (John Nelson Darby, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).​

With this facts in mind, we can understand what Paul said later in the same epistle applied to every single believer when the epistle was written:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

When Paul used the words "are we ALL baptized into one Body" that can only mean that the Twelve were included and therefore they are members of the Body of Christ.
 

Right Divider

Body part
The TWELVE will be ABOVE the Jewish believers who will be on the earth during the Messianic kingdom because they will JUDGE those tribes. Those in the Body will likewise be ABOVE the Gentile believers because they will judge the Gentiles living on the earth.

It is a simple thing to prove that all of the believers on the face of the earth were made members of the Body of Christ by the time Paul wrote his epistles. Paul's epistle which is traditionally known as "the First Epistle to the Corinthians" was not just addressed to those of the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​

The words found in this epistle are addressed to every single believer who lived at the time when it was written--"with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."
If THIS PART of THIS verse proves to you that everyone is in the SAME body, why does Paul IMMEDIATELY afterwards say "BOTH THEIRS AND OURS"?
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
If THIS PART of THIS verse proves to you that everyone is in the SAME body, why does Paul IMMEDIATELY afterwards say "BOTH THEIRS AND OURS"?

Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​

Do you think that the Twelve did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus and therefore they do not belong to the group in "bold" in the following passage?:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours"
(1 Cor.1:1-2).​
 

Right Divider

Body part
The TWELVE will be ABOVE the Jewish believers who will be on the earth during the Messianic kingdom because they will JUDGE those tribes. Those in the Body will likewise be ABOVE the Gentile believers because they will judge the Gentiles living on the earth.

Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:
"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​

Do you think that the Twelve did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus and therefore they do not belong to the group in "bold" in the following passage?:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours"
(1 Cor.1:1-2).​
So the TWELVE apostles will judge BOTH Israel and the Gentiles? But Paul will judge ONLY the Gentiles? :dizzy:
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
So the TWELVE apostles will judge BOTH Israel and the Gentiles? But Paul will judge ONLY the Gentiles? :dizzy:

I never said that the Twelve will judge Gentiles because the Scriptures state that they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

The other members of the Body of Christ will judge the world.

Do you think that the Twelve did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus and therefore they do not belong to the group in "bold" in the following passage?:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​
 

Right Divider

Body part
The TWELVE will be ABOVE the Jewish believers who will be on the earth during the Messianic kingdom because they will JUDGE those tribes. Those in the Body will likewise be ABOVE the Gentile believers because they will judge the Gentiles living on the earth.

I never said that the Twelve will judge Gentiles because the Scriptures state that they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Indeed you did. You claimed that the twelve are part of THOSE IN THE BODY and that "Those in the Body will...".

The other members of the Body of Christ will judge the world.
Now you subjectively decide that it's only the OTHER MEMBERS OF the body that will judge the gentiles?

I thought that is was ONE BODY.
 
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Jerry Shugart

New member
Indeed you did. You claimed that the twelve are part of THOSE IN THE BODY and that "Those in the Body will...".

I should have been more specific and should have said those in the Body (except the Twelve) will judge the world (except for the Twelve Tribes) and only the Twelve will judge the tribes of Israel.

Do you think that the Twelve did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus and therefore they do not belong to the group in "bold" in the following passage?:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
You just made that up.

Do you think that the Twelve did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus and therefore they do not belong to the group in "bold" in the following passage?:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​

I am not the only person who thinks that what is in "bold" in that verse refers to all the believers who were living in the first century at the time that epistle was written. John Nelson Darby, the very first Mid Acts dispensationalist, understood the verse in the same way which I do:

"He addresses the assembly of God at Corinth, adding a character (the application of which is evident when we consider the contents of the epistle) 'sanctified in Christ Jesus.' Afterwards the universality of the application of the doctrine and instructions of the epistle, and of its authority over all Christians, wherever they might be, is brought forward in this address" (John Nelson Darby, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).​

A.R. Fausset comments on the verse matches the commentary of Darby:

"with all that in every place call upon . . . Christ--The Epistle is intended for these also, as well as for the Corinthians. The true CATHOLIC CHURCH (a term first used by IGNATIUS [Epistle to the Smyraeans, 8]): not consisting of those who call themselves from Paul, Cephas, or any other eminent leader ( 1Cr 1:12 ), but of all, wherever they be, who call on Jesus as their Saviour in sincerity (compare 2Ti 2:22). Still a general unity of discipline and doctrine in the several churches is implied in 1Cr 4:17 7:17 11:16 14:33, 36" (A. R. Fausset, Jamieson, Fausset & Brown; Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2).​

Albert Barnes also interpreted the verse in the same way which those Christtians interpreted it:

"That he expected that this Epistle would be read, not only by the church at Corinth, but also by other churches. That this was the uniform intention of the apostle in regard to his epistles, is apparent from other places; compare 1 Thessalonians 5:27; 'I charge you by the Lord that this Epistle be read unto all the holy brethren;' Colossians 4:16; 'And when this Epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans.' It is evident that Paul expected that his epistles would obtain circulation among the churches; and it was morally certain that they would be soon transcribed, and be extensively read - the ardent feelings of Paul embraced all Christians in every nation. He knew nothing of the narrowness of exclusive attachment to a sect. His heart was full of love, and he loved, as we should, all who bore the Christian name, and who evinced the Christian spirit"
(Notes on the Bible by Albert Barnes, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).​

You accuse me of making things up but you won't even try to actually address what these Christians wrote. Why is that?
 

Right Divider

Body part
I should have been more specific and should have said those in the Body (except the Twelve) will judge the world (except for the Twelve Tribes) and only the Twelve will judge the tribes of Israel.
You made that up and clearly did not try to support IT with scripture.

Do you think that the Twelve did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus and therefore they do not belong to the group in "bold" in the following passage?:
"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:1-2).​

I am not the only person who thinks that what is in "bold" in that verse refers to all the believers who were living in the first century at the time that epistle was written.

You accuse me of making things up but you won't even try to actually address what these Christians wrote. Why is that?
I don't really care what THOSE guys say. They're confused about a great many things just like you.

You DID make that statement that I QUOTED above.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
I don't really care what THOSE guys say. They're confused about a great many things just like you.

You talk big but when it comes to actually proving what they said is in error you come up empty handed. Let's examine another point which the Neo-MADS make which is easy to refute. They say that only the Jews who were saved by Paul's gospel were made members of the Body of Christ but let's examine what is said about Apollos who was saved before hearing Paul's gospel of grace:

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).​

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one"
(1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
(Eph. 2:14-16).​

These words of Paul make it plain that the middle wall of partition which previously separated the Jews from the Gentiles has been broken and now the believing remnant out of Israel and the believing Gentiles are both reconciled unto one Body by the Cross.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I should have been more specific and should have said those in the Body (except the Twelve) will judge the world (except for the Twelve Tribes) and only the Twelve will judge the tribes of Israel.

You talk big but when it comes to actually proving what they said is in error you come up empty handed.
Blah, blah, blah.... FIRST, let's have you JUSTIFY with some SCRIPTURE your EXCLUSION of the TWELVE from the other members of the BODY OF CHRIST regarding the judgments that the BODY OF CHRIST is going to make in the future.

Sometimes you expose your shoddy understanding like THIS QUOTE ABOVE, but then you run away and try to make it disappear.

Own up Jerry.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Blah, blah, blah....

Now we know what you think of the Scriptures!

You prove it over and over because you run from the passages which are not convenient to your beliefs:

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​


Even though Paul says that both he and Apollos work together in the Body of Christ that they are not both in the Body of Christ. According to you he that planteth and he that watereth are not one!

Why?

You put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.
 
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