Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

[Samie]

This is riddled with error, confusion and evil.

KJV Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[Truster]

KJV Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

You just called that woe upon yourself. I commented on your twisting of scripture and not on the scriptures themselves.

 

[nikolai_42]

So what do you think, according to Scriptures, was lost?

In a direct and immediate sense, fellowship with God. Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and God pronounced judgment upon them. The most significant one that was fulfilled - in the day you eat of the fruit, you shall surely die. We are all dead in trespasses and sin until born again :

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many
Romans 5:12-15

Jesus emphasizes this inherent lostness when He speaks of encounters at the judgment :

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So what do you think, according to Scriptures, was lost?

Adding a wee bit to what Nickolai has posted above what was lost was...

The moral ability to not sin. All in Adam possess no moral ability to do what they ought to do: glorify God in every thought, word, or deed.

The guilt of Adam's first sin, plus the want {lack, absence} of original righteousness, and the corruption of his whole nature, is imputed by God to all Adam's ordinarily generated offspring.

Imputation describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He:

(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and
(2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9.

As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21: “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” In other words, “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That imputed righteousness, not any attained personal virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.

The corruption of Adam's whole nature includes his passing along to his offspring a corrupted constitution in every area, both moral, intellectual, and physical. Like begets like. And in the absence of any positive righteousness to pass on, there is no inherent possibility of fixing that which is ruined. God must act to fix that which is now ruined (Eze. 36:26).

Oddly enough, people quite readily and often accept imputation when considering other forms of representation. They often accept it, even if they conceal private reservations.

Spoiler

Consider the case of a nation-state going to war. A man or a Congress takes the nation to war. It is his, or the collection of representative's, decision. And just like that, those who confess to be members of the nation are at war. They don't have to know anything at all about the situation that engendered the conflict; they don't have to be personally harmed (to their knowledge) by the cause of the war. So, unless they repudiate the connection with their government or head-of-state, they as the body are summoned to war.

If the leaders and the army lose the war, what of the population? They did not repudiate the connection when it seemed they might win. They went on with their lives quite in isolation from the big decisions and noise of battle. Did they lose? Do they bear consequences of their connection to the leaders and the army? For a lot of minds analyzing the situation, the answer seems clear: yes, they bear the cost of losing; just as much as they would have been happy to enjoy the benefits of winning.

Christians who frequently have no problems whatsoever accepting the imputation of Christ's righteousness on their behalf, who understand that their acceptance with God is 100% on the basis of their union with Christ as their Head still balk, still hesitate to affirm their solidarity with the guilt of Adam, their first head. They are perfectly fine with "socialized" benefits, but they hate the idea of "socialized" condemnation. How natural. Sigh.

What is truly perverse are those efforts at privatizing benefits, while at the same time socializing penalties. Big shots do that all the time. And, just as contrary to the perversion is the wonderful good Christ did in the opposite direction for our sake. He privatized our penalty unto himself; and socialized all his benefits to us, his people.

Our actual sins are the bad fruit of our corruption. They are not separate from the source, the sin of Adam as our federal head. But it is correct to reason that these actual sins are not the ground of condemnation. The condemnation is the condition in which we are born: condemned already. We don't get more condemned because of our actual sins. Rather, those actual sins "store up" the strokes (Luke 12:47) due as penalty for such evil deeds.

Original sin consists in the guilt of Adam's first sin, the want of original righteousness, and the corruption of our whole nature. The actual transgressions proceeding from this nature are the fruit of this nature. These prove our guilt and desert of condemnation; just as our post-justification good works, done imperfectly (hence without merit) but sincerely and in the Spirit, serve as proof of the divine work of inward renovation (Eze. 36:26).

AMR

 

[Truster]

Adam, in his fallen and sinful state brought forth children in his own likeness and after his image. All men are therefore born in Adam's sinful state. Gen 5:3

You seem to think that a man is a sinner because he sins, but the truth of the matter is that man commits sin because, he is a sinner. All his intentions, thoughts, words and deeds are sin.

In addition to this we have the fact that the regenerate man is blessed because," Blessed is the man to whom Adonay shall not no way reckon sin."

This means that the regenerate man loses the mutability of Adam and puts on the immutability of the Last Adam Yah Shua Messiah. The regenerate man is on a more sure footing than Adam had before the fall. Truly amazing grace...

 

[Samie]

Adam, in his fallen and sinful state brought forth children in his own likeness and after his image. All men are therefore born in Adam's sinful state. Gen 5:3

You are trying to NEGATIVELY portray our Father in heaven, in that when His child Adam fell into sin He did NOTHING to save him from drowning in it and allowed his godly nature to morph from good to evil. Not a good picture of our Father Who is agape. Even a good earthly father, upon seeing his child fall into the water, will do all in his power to save his child from drowning, even at the peril of his own life!

Being a good Father that He is, God through Christ saved Adam that same day he fell into sin by implementing the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time and sent down Heaven's physician the same day the emergency occurred in Eden, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ, instead of born in sin as Augustine erroneously taught.

That people are born NOT lost is emphasized by Jesus Himself in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son (Luke 15:1-24).

1. Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold under the care of its shepherd.
2. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
3. Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We begin life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

But we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). This is why we are all enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3,5).

 

[Truster]

You are trying to NEGATIVELY portray our Father in heaven, in that when His child Adam fell into sin He did NOTHING to save him from drowning in it and allowed his godly nature to morph from good to evil. Not a good picture of our Father Who is agape. Even a good earthly father, upon seeing his child fall into the water, will do all in his power to save his child from drowning, even at the peril of his own life!

Being a good Father that He is, God through Christ saved Adam that same day he fell into sin by implementing the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time and sent down Heaven's physician the same day the emergency occurred in Eden, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ, instead of born in sin as Augustine erroneously taught.

That people are born NOT lost is emphasized by Jesus Himself in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son (Luke 15:1-24).

1. Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold under the care of its shepherd.
2. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
3. Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We begin life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

But we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). This is why we are all enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3,5).

I see you are one of those that has scripture but hasn't received the ability to extract the doctrine contained in the word. The scribes and pharisees had the same problem. As do all the unregenerate denomination members today.

I said none of the things you accuse me of.

 

[Samie]

I see you are one of those that has scripture but hasn't received the ability to extract the doctrine contained in the word. The scribes and pharisees had the same problem. As do all the unregenerate denomination members today.

You're not one of them, I suppose. Because not only you have no Scripture, but you also go against the plain words of our Savior contained in Scriptures.

I said none of the things you accuse me of.

I'm not accusing you; I'm telling you what, to me, are implied in your post.

 

[Truster]

You're not one of them, I suppose. Because not only you have no Scripture, but you also go against the plain words of our Savior contained in Scriptures.

I'm not accusing you; I'm telling you what, to me, are implied in your post.

I rest firmly and securely in the fact that the Eternal Almighty knows my intents, my thoughts, my words and my deeds.

PS Everything I post is doctrine based on scripture. The reason I don't post chapter and verse is that those in whom the word richly dwells will recognise the doctrinal value and the scriptures on which they are based.

There are at least 4 scriptures in that statement.

 

[God's Truth]

Adding a wee bit to what Nickolai has posted above what was lost was...

The moral ability to not sin. All in Adam possess no moral ability to do what they ought to do: glorify God in every thought, word, or deed.

The guilt of Adam's first sin, plus the want {lack, absence} of original righteousness, and the corruption of his whole nature, is imputed by God to all Adam's ordinarily generated offspring.

Imputation describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He:

(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and
(2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9.

As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21: “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” In other words, “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That imputed righteousness, not any attained personal virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.

The corruption of Adam's whole nature includes his passing along to his offspring a corrupted constitution in every area, both moral, intellectual, and physical. Like begets like. And in the absence of any positive righteousness to pass on, there is no inherent possibility of fixing that which is ruined. God must act to fix that which is now ruined (Eze. 36:26).

Oddly enough, people quite readily and often accept imputation when considering other forms of representation. They often accept it, even if they conceal private reservations.

Spoiler

Consider the case of a nation-state going to war. A man or a Congress takes the nation to war. It is his, or the collection of representative's, decision. And just like that, those who confess to be members of the nation are at war. They don't have to know anything at all about the situation that engendered the conflict; they don't have to be personally harmed (to their knowledge) by the cause of the war. So, unless they repudiate the connection with their government or head-of-state, they as the body are summoned to war.

If the leaders and the army lose the war, what of the population? They did not repudiate the connection when it seemed they might win. They went on with their lives quite in isolation from the big decisions and noise of battle. Did they lose? Do they bear consequences of their connection to the leaders and the army? For a lot of minds analyzing the situation, the answer seems clear: yes, they bear the cost of losing; just as much as they would have been happy to enjoy the benefits of winning.

Christians who frequently have no problems whatsoever accepting the imputation of Christ's righteousness on their behalf, who understand that their acceptance with God is 100% on the basis of their union with Christ as their Head still balk, still hesitate to affirm their solidarity with the guilt of Adam, their first head. They are perfectly fine with "socialized" benefits, but they hate the idea of "socialized" condemnation. How natural. Sigh.

What is truly perverse are those efforts at privatizing benefits, while at the same time socializing penalties. Big shots do that all the time. And, just as contrary to the perversion is the wonderful good Christ did in the opposite direction for our sake. He privatized our penalty unto himself; and socialized all his benefits to us, his people.

Our actual sins are the bad fruit of our corruption. They are not separate from the source, the sin of Adam as our federal head. But it is correct to reason that these actual sins are not the ground of condemnation. The condemnation is the condition in which we are born: condemned already. We don't get more condemned because of our actual sins. Rather, those actual sins "store up" the strokes (Luke 12:47) due as penalty for such evil deeds.

Original sin consists in the guilt of Adam's first sin, the want of original righteousness, and the corruption of our whole nature. The actual transgressions proceeding from this nature are the fruit of this nature. These prove our guilt and desert of condemnation; just as our post-justification good works, done imperfectly (hence without merit) but sincerely and in the Spirit, serve as proof of the divine work of inward renovation (Eze. 36:26).

AMR

You say things that are nowhere in the scriptures.

As proof of your false doctrines you use Adam, but then forget about his two sons Cain and Abel and what they taught.

One did right and the other did wrong.

The one who did wrong could have mastered sin, just as God told him to do.

Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."

Calvinism is a falseness that needs to be rebuked

 

[Samie]

Adding a wee bit to what Nickolai has posted above what was lost was...

The moral ability to not sin. All in Adam possess no moral ability to do what they ought to do: glorify God in every thought, word, or deed.

The guilt of Adam's first sin, plus the want {lack, absence} of original righteousness, and the corruption of his whole nature, is imputed by God to all Adam's ordinarily generated offspring.

If the above proposition were true, then, there will be no little children in the holy mountain of God in the new earth (see Isa 11:6-9; 65:17, 25). But since there will be little children there, then the above proposition is untrue.

Imputation describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He:

(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and
(2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9.

This is simply described in Eph 2:11-19. On the cross God created a new man: Christ the Head, Jews and Gentiles (humanity) the Body. When the Head died, the Body died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER WITH Him (Col 2:13, 14; Eph 2:4-6), born again to a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:7).

As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness.

Seems not in synch with the ff:

NIV Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

If people are born in sin, then they are born NOT in Christ. So, what will people do to be in Christ?

 

[God's Truth]

In addition to this we have the fact that the regenerate man is blessed because," Blessed is the man to whom Adonay shall not no way reckon sin."

This means that the regenerate man loses the mutability of Adam and puts on the immutability of the Last Adam Yah Shua Messiah. The regenerate man is on a more sure footing than Adam had before the fall. Truly amazing grace...

Think about it some more.

Who said that scripture?

David did.

David sinned.

David REPENTED of those sins.

Nowhere anywhere did God make David sin, and nowhere anywhere did God just save David.

David had to REPENT OF HIS SINS.

David was punished for sinning, and forgiven because he repented.

 

[God's Truth]

If the above proposition were true, then, there will be no little children in the holy mountain of God in the new earth (see Isa 11:6-9; 65:17, 25). But since there will be little children there, then the above proposition is untrue.

This is simply described in Eph 2:11-19. On the cross God created a new man: Christ the Head, Jews and Gentiles (humanity) the Body. When the Head died, the Body died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER WITH Him (Col 2:13, 14; Eph 2:4-6), born again to a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:7).

Seems not in synch with the ff:

NIV Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

If people are born in sin, then they are born NOT in Christ. So, what will people do to be in Christ?

What will people do to be in Christ, you ask.

They do what Jesus says to do to be born again.

 

[Samie]

What will people do to be in Christ, you ask.

They do what Jesus says to do to be born again.

Here you go again, going against what Jesus Himself said that while NOT in Him, man can do NOTHING.

You say people are born NOT in Christ, yet they can do SOMETHING?

If you are right, then Christ is wrong. But since Christ can NEVER be wrong, then you are wrong.

 

[God's Truth]

Here you go again, going against what Jesus Himself said that while NOT in Him, man can do NOTHING.

You say people are born NOT in Christ, yet they can do SOMETHING?

If you are right, then Christ is wrong. But since Christ can NEVER be wrong, then you are wrong.

You are not Christ and you are preaching wrong.

It is not what you say just because you say it.

No one is born in Christ.

Jesus puts people in him.

If people were born in Christ, then how is it that he needs to put anyone in him?

Answer that question instead of merely giving your same rote mantra from false teachers.

 

[Samie]

The doctrine that people are born in sin is the impurity that pervades the brand of gospel being preached to the world. This is perhaps why Jesus has not yet returned. The gospel He wanted preached to the world is not yet preached.

We need to remove the impurity and in its stead tell the people that they are born in Christ.

 

[Samie]

You are not Christ and you are preaching wrong.

It is not what you say just because you say it.

No one is born in Christ.

Jesus puts people in him.

If people were born in Christ, then how is it that he needs to put anyone in him?

Answer that question instead of merely giving your same rote mantra from false teachers.

Can you tell me the verse implying that Jesus needs to put you in Him? And then I'll answer your question.

And can you tell me of anybody who also teaches that people are born in Christ? If none, then, how can you say I derived what I teach from false teachers?

 

[God's Truth]

The doctrine that people are born in sin is the impurity that pervades the brand of gospel being preached to the world. This is perhaps why Jesus has not yet returned. The gospel He wanted preached to the world is not yet preached.

We need to remove the impurity and in its stead tell the people that they are born in Christ.

You are teaching that we are already in Christ.

Now that is evil since the scriptures say everyone is condemned until they come to Christ.

God came to earth and His blood reconciles us to Him.

You have to have faith in His blood to be put in Him.

 

[Samie]

You are teaching that we are already in Christ.

Now that is evil since the scriptures say everyone is condemned until they come to Christ.

What verse says this, GT?

God came to earth and His blood reconciles us to Him.

Agree.

You have to have faith in His blood to be put in Him.

Disagree.

If you are not in Christ, you can not bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5)

If you cannot bear fruit, then you can not have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22)

 

[God's Truth]

Can you tell me the verse implying that Jesus needs to put you in Him? And then I'll answer your question.

Don't you know that Jesus reconciles us to God?

Reconciles means bring back.

If you are in Christ how is it you need to be brought back?

God made the whole universe in the body of Christ.

Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out.

Jesus came and shows us how to be put back in him.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Did you read that?

You have to COME TO JESUS AND GO THROUGH HIM.

If all are already in Christ then that statement is false.

And can you tell me of anybody who also teaches that people are born in Christ? If none, then, how can you say I derived what I teach from false teachers?

Try hyper Calvinists.