Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

[iamaberean]

If in the phrase you bolded the apostle Paul actually meant what you want him to mean that people are born in sin, then the apostle contradicted Christ's words in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son (Luke 15:1-24), that people start out life NOT lost.

Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd in the sheepfold.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us. We start out in life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be In Christ. But we all sinned. That's why are enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3, 5).

To whom did God give the Old Testament to? (select one)

1. Children of Abraham

2. Children of the world.

To whom did Jesus come as their Messiah (Saviour)?

1. Children of Abraham

2. Children of the world.

Who was the first Gentile to become a child of God?

1. Paul

2. Cornelius

Who did Jesus call the lost sheep?

1. Gentiles

2. Israel

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[Samie]

To whom did God give the Old Testament to? (select one)

1. Children of Abraham

2. Children of the world.

To whom did Jesus come as their Messiah (Saviour)?

1. Children of Abraham

2. Children of the world.

Who was the first Gentile to become a child of God?

1. Paul

2. Cornelius

Who did Jesus call the lost sheep?

1. Gentiles

2. Israel

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

God is God of the whole world, NOT of the Hebrews only (Ps 47:7).
His Word is for the whole world NOT for the Hebrews only (Jer 22:29).
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, NOT of the Hebrews' only (John 1:29).
God sent His Son to save the world, NOT the Hebrews only (John 3:16, 17).
Jesus gave His life for the world, NOT for the Hebrews only (John 6:51).
God sent His Son to be the Savior of the world, NOT of the Hebrews only (1 John 4:14).

 

[Robert Pate]

Your doctrine makes a sham out of the Gospel and the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

"Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation" Romans 5:18

There it is right in front of you. ALL MEN ARE BORN SINNERS.

"Even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ) the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Adam brings sin and death upon humanity. Jesus Christ brings the free gift of salvation and justification.

 

[Samie]

Your doctrine makes a sham out of the Gospel and the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

"Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation" Romans 5:18

There it is right in front of you. ALL MEN ARE BORN SINNERS.

The verse does not say what you want it to say. You are hallucinating with heretical teaching, Pate.

"Even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ) the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Adam brings sin and death upon humanity. Jesus Christ brings the free gift of salvation and justification.

God through Christ saved Adam that same day he sinned, Pate, by implementing the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time and immediately sent down heaven's Physician when the emergency occurred in Eden, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ!

Even an earthly father, upon seeing his child fall into the water, will, even at the peril of his own life, do all in his power to save his child from drowning. How much more our heavenly Father, the God of agape.

You portray our heavenly Father as one who did NOTHING to save his child Adam from drowning when he fell into sin that day but instead allowed His child to drown in it and simply watched his nature morph from good to evil. You portray our Father as manning the 911 headquarters but sent heaven's emergency Medic 4000 years after the emergency occurred. Yours is a heretical portrayal, Pate.

 

[ttruscott]

If people are born in sin, then infants are born NOT in Christ because sin separates man from God, and therefore are born lost. If so, then why does Isaiah prophesy there well be infants in the holy mountain of God?

Those infants could not have been conceived in the new earth because there is no marriage in the new heaven and new earth (see Mark 12:24, 25). So from where are those little children in the holy mountain of God in the new earth? Calvinists and Arminians have a lot of explaining to do.

I am decided that both Calvinists and Arminians are wrongly decided in their answers about our creation and the fall.

Obviously Isaiah 65:20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. must refer to a time before the marriage and procreation of people ends since people are still said to die. It can't be after our final resurrection to our spirit bodies so probably refers to the 1000 years of life on earth before Satan is released again.

 

[ttruscott]

Your doctrine makes a sham out of the Gospel and the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

"Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation" Romans 5:18

Judgement came to all men by Adam's offence...but that does not mean that His sin came to all men since it does not say that..it clearly says that the judgement on Adam came to all men BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL SINNERS.

There it is right in front of you. ALL MEN ARE BORN SINNERS.

AMEN! But not due to inheriting Adam's sin which is a blasphemy or great import, but due to their own freely chosen sin.

"Even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ) the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.
Adam brings sin and death upon humanity. Jesus Christ brings the free gift of salvation and justification.

Adam brought death to the earth and Jesus brought life. As for Adam bringing sin to humanity, the serpent sinned first arriving in the garden with evil intent and Eve sinned at least three times in the garden before Adam so the only way he could have brought sin into the world was if he brought it with him when he was breathed into his earthly body...

 

[Samie]

I am decided that both Calvinists and Arminians are wrongly decided in their answers about our creation and the fall.

Agree.

Shown the truth from Scriptures that people are born in Christ instead of born in sin, is one willing to opt for a paradigm shift?

 

[ttruscott]

Agree.

Shown the truth from Scriptures that people are born in Christ instead of born in sin, is one willing to opt for a paradigm shift?

My paradigm is pretty far out there as it is...I do not accept that everyone is in Christ at their birth, but I do accept that the elect sinners are indeed within His promise of redemption and are thereby within His flock at the time of their birth though as sinners they are 'sheep gone astray'.

In other words, can you accept that a person in Christ can be a sinner? Jacob was an elect in Christ while trying to murder his brother in the womb...in Christ can mean both elect, under the promise of salvation, AND as redeemed, under the fulfilment of the promise of election.

These who never put their faith in Him were never in Him and as non-believers from the start (of the separation of HIS creation into the elect and the non-elect), are condemned already, Jn 3:18.

 

[Samie]

My paradigm is pretty far out there as it is...I do not accept that everyone is in Christ at their birth,

Disagree. God is an IMPARTIAL God. He doesn't play favorites. Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9; 1 Pet 1:17.

but I do accept that the elect sinners are indeed within His promise of redemption and are thereby within His flock at the time of their birth though as sinners they are 'sheep gone astray'.

We all are sheep gone astray (Isa 53:6).

In other words, can you accept that a person in Christ can be a sinner?

Of course. But the sin he commits, having been all forgiven (Col 2:13) through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (John 1:29; Rev 13:8), is NOT imputed against him (2 Cor 5:18, 19) BUT his act of sinning is proof enough that evil overcame him instead of him overcoming evil with good (Rom 12:21). If he dies an overcomer, Christ will NOT blot his name from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ on His throne even as Christ also overcame and sat down with the Father on His throne (Rev 3:21).

When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), all NOT blotted out will gain entry to the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

Jacob was an elect in Christ while trying to murder his brother in the womb...in Christ can mean both elect, under the promise of salvation, AND as redeemed, under the fulfilment of the promise of election.

These who never put their faith in Him were never in Him and as non-believers from the start (of the separation of HIS creation into the elect and the non-elect), are condemned already, Jn 3:18.

"Put their faith in Him". That means they HAVE faith to put in Him. If one has faith, then he is born in Christ, for IF anyone is born NOT in Christ, he can NEVER have faith.

 

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by ttruscott
My paradigm is pretty far out there as it is...I do not accept that everyone is in Christ at their birth,

Disagree. God is an IMPARTIAL God. He doesn't play favorites. Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9; 1 Pet 1:17.

You accept our birth as our creation...I do not. Our conception is not our creation (no traducianism) nor is our birth our creation (no Creationism of the Soul)... AT our creation there was no discrimination and GOD was impartial but after we sinned and some were condemned already, GOD brought this partiality into the world when He sowed (not created, the devil does it also, Matt 13:36-39) the people of HIS kingdom into the world.

We all are sheep gone astray (Isa 53:6).

Then we are all HIS sheep and we all hear His voice and follow Him...and there are no goats, no people condemned already for their unbelief, Jn 3:18. No, only His elect are in His flock and gone astray but will be returned to their Shepherd. GOD will lose none of His sheep yet some people are eternally lost proving hey are not His sheep, but goats, also called tares.

"Put their faith in Him". That means they HAVE faith to put in Him. If one has faith, then he is born in Christ, for IF anyone is born NOT in Christ, he can NEVER have faith.

I agree with this except it seems to contradict your other contention that "We all are sheep gone astray (Isa 53:6)."

 

[Samie]

You accept our birth as our creation...

Never said nor implied that our birth is our creation. I believe we have only One Creator.

Then we are all HIS sheep and we all hear His voice and follow Him...and there are no goats, no people condemned already for their unbelief, Jn 3:18. No, only His elect are in His flock and gone astray but will be returned to their Shepherd. GOD will lose none of His sheep yet some people are eternally lost proving hey are not His sheep, but goats, also called tares.

Disagree.

There are names in the book of life that had been blotted out. Why would God write them in the book of life if they were not of His flock?

I agree with this except it seems to contradict your other contention that "We all are sheep gone astray (Isa 53:6)."

TO go astray simply means we did not start life ALREADY astray, hence born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

 

[ttruscott]

TO go astray simply means we did not start life ALREADY astray, hence born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

Sure, but then what can be the difference between those who believe (already) and those who are condemned already? When does 'already' start?

Since 1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. was obviously written to new converts, when did they go astray? Is this written to those who believed in Christ then went astray into unbelief... the apostate? Could new converts be apostate in your system?

From hence born NOT lost, I take it you are not a Calvinist nor a believer in our inheriting Adam's sin?

 

[Samie]

Sure, but then what can be the difference between those who believe (already) and those who are condemned already? When does 'already' start?

Again, people are born ALREADY in Christ, PLUGGED IN to Him Who is the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24). Hence people have the power to believe. Their "believing" comes AFTER their being in Christ.

As to those who are already condemned as per John 3:18, I believe that they are but disciplined by the Lord. The word "condemned" in John 3:18 is from the Greek "krino". The same Greek word "krino" was used in the following verse but was translated "judged" instead.

NAS 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.

I think to be disciplined is to be given the time to consider their options and do the believing at a later point in time. For me, there's hope while alive.

Since 1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. was obviously written to new converts, when did they go astray? Is this written to those who believed in Christ then went astray into unbelief... the apostate? Could new converts be apostate in your system?

Scriptures tell us that we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6), because we all sinned (Rom 3:23). This is why we are all enjoined to repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

From hence born NOT lost, I take it you are not a Calvinist nor a believer in our inheriting Adam's sin?

Yes, I'm not a Calvinist. I believe that people are born in Christ, instead of born in sin. In the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son, Christ Himself taught that people don't start life already lost.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd;
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner;
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We are born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

 

[Truster]

Again, people are born ALREADY in Christ, PLUGGED IN to Him Who is the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24). Hence people have the power to believe. Their "believing" comes AFTER their being in Christ.

As to those who are already condemned as per John 3:18, I believe that they are but disciplined by the Lord. The word "condemned" in John 3:18 is from the Greek "krino". The same Greek word "krino" was used in the following verse but was translated "judged" instead.

NAS 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.

I think to be disciplined is to be given the time to consider their options and do the believing at a later point in time. For me, there's hope while alive.

Scriptures tell us that we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6), because we all sinned (Rom 3:23). This is why we are all enjoined to repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Yes, I'm not a Calvinist. I believe that people are born in Christ, instead of born in sin. In the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son, Christ Himself taught that people don't start life already lost.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd;
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner;
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We are born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

You should try reading the Bible and stop making it up as you go along.

PS There again if the Almighty wants you to know the truth He'll save you at some point...

 

[Samie]

You should try reading the Bible and stop making it up as you go along.

It's a better environment of discussion if ad hominems are not thrown in, brother. I wonder why you did not see the Bible verses in my post you responded to.

PS There again if the Almighty wants you to know the truth He'll save you at some point...

Yes, because there are three tenses of salvation: past, present, future:

1. We have been saved:

NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

2. We are being saved:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

3. We shall be saved:

NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

You should try reading the Bible and stop making it up as you go along.

PS There again if the Almighty wants you to know the truth He'll save you at some point...

Or you could have been ensnared by the devil and his angels.

 

[ttruscott]

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd;
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner;
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We are born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

So what does LOST mean if not separated from the flock, the owner or the father? Did Christ lose the members of HIS flock thru inattention or because HE slept? Of course not, there must be more than a hint of rebellion to this word lost. So I agree with you but I challenge you to say when the lost who are found were not lost before they got lost? In terms of becoming sinful, when did those in Christ's spirit choose their sin to not be in HIS spirit so they became liable to death in the womb?? You claim after their birth but I claim that death in the womb is against you here.

Death is the wages of sin (being 'lost') so death proves sin. Humans die in the womb proving they are sinners even there. This conundrum is solved IF the sin was pre-earth, not in human life but pre-human life where your protestations have a strong validity for our CREATION, but not for here on earth about our BIRTH after we are sown into this world, in which sown cannot mean to be created since the devil does it along with the Son of Man.

Theologically you champion people not being created as lost from Christ and I wholeheartedly agree but to conflate creation with our birth leads to further theological difficulty.

 

[Samie]

So what does LOST mean if not separated from the flock, the owner or the father? Did Christ lose the members of HIS flock thru inattention or because HE slept? Of course not, there must be more than a hint of rebellion to this word lost. So I agree with you but I challenge you to say when the lost who are found were not lost before they got lost? In terms of becoming sinful, when did those in Christ's spirit choose their sin to not be in HIS spirit so they became liable to death in the womb?? You claim after their birth but I claim that death in the womb is against you here.

I don't think so. Man was created with conditional immortality. That immortality was lost when sin came in. That immortality will be regained when Christ comes again. Rom 5:14; 1 Cor 15:22, 51-54.

Death is the wages of sin (being 'lost') so death proves sin. Humans die in the womb proving they are sinners even there.

I have to disagree.

Scripture defines sin in FOUR (4) different ways. All of the 4 can only occur AFTER birth.

1. All unrighteousness is sin. 1 John 5:17
2. Whatever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23
3. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17
4. Transgression of the law is sin. 1 John 3:4

This conundrum is solved IF the sin was pre-earth, not in human life but pre-human life where your protestations have a strong validity for our CREATION, but not for here on earth about our BIRTH after we are sown into this world, in which sown cannot mean to be created since the devil does it along with the Son of Man.

I believe sin can not be pre-earth as I have just shown above. But yes, the devil had also sown and the tares he sowed can never become wheat. There is no plan of salvation for Satan and his host. Mat 25:41

Theologically you champion people not being created as lost from Christ and I wholeheartedly agree but to conflate creation with our birth leads to further theological difficulty.

I don't conflate creation with birth. Birth is procreation; only Adam & Eve were created.

 

[ttruscott]

Scripture defines sin in FOUR (4) different ways. All of the 4 can only occur AFTER birth.

Really, ONLY?

As you know, I contend that YHWH gave us the opportunity before the creation of the physical universe to accept HIM or to rebel against HIS claims to be our creator GOD.

1. All unrighteousness is sin. 1 John 5:17

To rebel against HIM would be unrighteous whether pre-earth in Sheol of after the creation of the earth. This sin could obviously have been chosen in Sheol.

2. Whatever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23

Those HE chose to be HIS elect put their free will faith in HIM as their GOD and in HIS Son as their saviour from all and any sin in the future. This is the source of saving faith.

Those He condemned to the lake of fire, the goats, chose to put their faith in HIM being a false god and a liar. As the first liar in creation they accused HIM of being the most demonic being, fulfilling also the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So strong was their commitment to their faith HE was not GOD that they knew that if HE ever proved HE was GOD they would be damned but they would not accept having to be married to HIM in heaven and rather chose to go to hell if HE was GOD. They committed their faith to this path even though they knew that some of the elect planned to accept HIS deity to avoid hell but then go their own way in rebellion.

3. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

Without proof of HIS deity, no one had the proof of HIS word to be good or bad, except by faith. So, you are probably right with this one - it was not a sin available in Sheol.

4. Transgression of the law is sin. 1 John 3:4

IF GOD made HIS claim to be our GOD in the form of a law or command such as "I am the Lord thy GOD, worship me and no other!" then why could they not break this command in Sheol as easily as on earth?

But I do not believe HE did make it a command because it is written that commands are given to sinners so they can stop thinking they are righteous (and therefore become ashamed) because a righteous person could keep the law: Romans 7:7 Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Therefor I think He did not lay down the law that we accept HIS deity but rather HE wooed us with HIS claims to eternal heaven which HE would share with us as HIS Bride. HE wooed us with the promise of the gospel which we all heard, Col 1:23, as extolled in Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? I think it is obvious to all here that these questions are rhetorical, to be answered only with a YES, of course we have heard and understood!

I think that the reference to "Have you not understood since the earth was founded?" ​ refers to Rom 1:20, the proof of YHWH's divinity and power which we saw and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7, and that we have understood all we needed to know of HIS deity, power and salvation by then! It implies that YOU have understood since the foundation of the world !!! but repressed knowing these things due to sin, like the rest of us.

 

[oatmeal]

To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?

God in his foreknowledge knew that Jeremiah would have what it would take to serve as a prophet. God foresaw his heart that Jeremiah would develop by his love and adherence to God's word.

God thus was right in making that declaration about Jeremiah

God has foreseen the hearts of all people and marked out those who would choose to believe His word.

All people are born "dead in trespasses and in sin and are without God and without hope" Ephesians 2

We all need to be saved from that dismal existence.

Wnen we hear the word of God we can choose to believe or not to believe.

God already knows who will believe to be saved and God foreknows who will actually do something with that gift of salvation.