Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

[God's Truth]

Humans were born in Christ, and humans were cast out.

Jesus came to reconcile us to God, and we must get back in Christ, we must be reconciled to Him through Christ.

If the saved are already in Christ when they are born, then why would they have to come to what they are in?
Why would they have to come in and go through what they are already in?

 

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Samie Yes, I have.

Why is it you seem to view children opposite to how Jesus viewed them?


Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Good point, yet we are born to sin, and saved in Christ

Agreed.

Because I believe we're born in sin, I do not believe that it is the innocence of children that is the meaning of "such" but something else since they are not innocent. They are under the judgement against sin as much as any adult but they have an ingenuous response to being taught about sin and seeking repentance. This willingness to accept what they are taught is their kingdomly aspect, not innocence. The sinful but good seed ARE the people of the kingdom even though if the judgement were called they would be rooted up with the tares. Sinners don't become kingdom members by sanctification for sinners are sown as members of the kingdom into the the world.

 

[ttruscott]

If you can't define sin then you can't determine if infants are born in sin.

Since you don't know what sin is we're at a standstill.

Sin is anything that is not in accord with GOD's nature, HIS righteous lovingness. To be faithful is to be in accord with HIS nature, HIS desires and HIS plans. To be unfaithful is to be not in accord with HIM.

Take the account of Jacob and Esau, Gen 25:22, who were fighting each other, trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb because they were fighting to be the first born as GOD told Rebecca. Leaving aside how they could know the law of primogeniture in the womb, the idea that they were being murderous and not just crowded and jostling for space is lost in the English probably to hide the fact of their evil in the womb:
struggled: Strong’s Definitions: רָצַץrâtsats, raw-tsats'; a primitive root; to crack in pieces, literally or figuratively:—break, bruise, crush (to pieces) , discourage, oppress, struggle together.

The question remains, could they both have been faithful to their GOD at this time? Since their hatred of each other was so startling, it is obvious that at least one of them (and I suspect both of them) must have been rebellious to GOD's plan for him, that is sinful, in need of a rebirth in the spirit and sanctification.

 

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by jamie
Newborns and all others can do nothing to save themselves. Salvation is only by God's grace, not by our good works.

You believe newborns are born not saved, hence, they were born apart from Christ. So, when did you get saved, being apart from Christ at birth, jamie?

The good seed do not become the people of the kingdom, they ARE the people of the kingdom. The lost sheep are not lost because the Good Shepherd lost them but because they left the Shepherd's care by willfully going to sin city. Since salvation is by grace and not our works, and since GOD is not arbitrary or unreasonable, it is necessary to believe that we joined HIS flock by our own free will decision to come under HIS promise of election to heaven by salvation from any and all sin in HIS Son.

To be in His flock is to be in the special relationship to him, those He foreknew as distinct from those whom He knew about but were characterized as "I never knew thee!", the people of His kingdom who had chosen to be sinful and who were sentenced to live with the tares, those who were condemned already for unbelief, until they fully repent and come into accord with ALL HIS plans including the judgement.

So while we are born as sinners, we are also born under HIS promise of salvation aka election, which is fulfilled in us when by grace through faith we return to HIM, our Saviour.

 

[ttruscott]

God does not charge us with the sins of others. That has already been done.

I contend that that cannot have ever been done or it explicitly contradicts the injunction that the son does not die for the sins of the father. People have denied GOD's loving righteousness in supposing HE made HIS Bride evil corrupt sinners by making us human...the mind boggles that this can be held as a Christian doctrine, but it is an inevitable consequence of believing in our being created on earth either at our conception by traducianism or at our birth as per the creationism of the soul theory. The blasphemy man will accept to make their theology 'work'.

 

[Truster]

The good seed do not become the people of the kingdom, they ARE the people of the kingdom. The lost sheep are not lost because the Good Shepherd lost them but because they left the Shepherd's care by willfully going to sin city. Since salvation is by grace and not our works, and since GOD is not arbitrary or unreasonable, it is necessary to believe that we joined HIS flock by our own free will decision to come under HIS promise of election to heaven by salvation from any and all sin in HIS Son.

To be in His flock is to be in the special relationship to him, those He foreknew as distinct from those whom He knew about but were characterized as "I never knew thee!", the people of His kingdom who had chosen to be sinful and who were sentenced to live with the tares, those who were condemned already for unbelief, until they fully repent and come into accord with ALL HIS plans including the judgement.

So while we are born as sinners, we are also born under HIS promise of salvation aka election, which is fulfilled in us when by grace through faith we return to HIM, our Saviour.

Man does not possess free will.

 

[Samie]

Good day, everyone.

So you claim people are born in Christ---yet you go against those who say people are born in sin?

Why would not I? "Born in Christ" and "born in sin" are mutually exclusive.

Hyper Calvinists say people are born in Christ/born saved, yet they do still sin.

Calvinists don't teach people are born in Christ. IF they do, they're not Calvinists.

Are you claiming those born in Christ DON'T sin?

You're reading my posts and not understanding them? How many times do I have tell you that we all are born in Christ, yet we all like sheep went astray? This is why we are all enjoined to repent - overcome evil with good. Unless we repent, we perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Either and all ways of Calvinism, hyper Calvinists, 5 point Calvinists, 4 point, 3 point, etc., all are wrong.

So why did you believe their doctrine that people are born in sin?

 

[Samie]

Humans were born in Christ, and humans were cast out.

Not cast out; we strayed (isa 53:6). We strayed because we all sinned.

Jesus came to reconcile us to God, and we must get back in Christ, we must be reconciled to Him through Christ.

That had been done. see Rom 5:10

If the saved are already in Christ when they are born, then why would they have to come to what they are in?

Christ said that when we are not in Him, we can do NOTHING. The fact that He bids us "come to Him for rest" (Matt 11:28) simply means we can come to Him - and therefore are already in Him, being already capable of doing SOMETHING instead of NOTHING.

Why would they have to come in and go through what they are already in?

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, GT (1 Cor 2:14). And Jesus' words are spirit and life (John 6:63).

He said that He is in the Father and the Father in Him but He will yet go to His Father (John 14:10-12). So with us; we are in Him but we can yet come to Him.

 

[Samie]

Because I believe we're born in sin, I do not believe that it is the innocence of children that is the meaning of "such" but something else since they are not innocent. They are under the judgement against sin as much as any adult but they have an ingenuous response to being taught about sin and seeking repentance. This willingness to accept what they are taught is their kingdomly aspect, not innocence.

If what you said above is true then there will be no little children - sucking child - in the holy mountain of God in the new heaven and the new earth.

But since there will be little children there, then your proposition is untrue.

See Isa 11:6-9; 65:17, 25.

 

[God's Truth]

Good day, everyone.Why would not I? "Born in Christ" and "born in sin" are mutually exclusive.

All humans are born inclined to sin, and they must learn about God to obey and know God.

Calvinists don't teach people are born in Christ. IF they do, they're not Calvinists.

I couldn't care any less about your opinion on it. There are Calvinists who say they were born saved before they are saved.

You're reading my posts and not understanding them? How many times do I have tell you that we all are born in Christ, yet we all like sheep went astray?

You think everyone in the world is born in Christ?

This is why we are all enjoined to repent - overcome evil with good. Unless we repent, we perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Those who do not repent do not get put in Christ.

So why did you believe their doctrine that people are born in sin?

Again, we are all born inclined to sin. We have to be taught about God.

I would like you to speak about the scriptures I post instead of just repeating your beliefs.

 

[God's Truth]

Not cast out; we strayed (isa 53:6). We strayed because we all sinned.

You are speaking of the saved Jews; I am speaking of the beginning of time.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

That had been done. see Rom 5:10

Reconciled to Him is being put in Him. You said we were already born in Him.

Christ said that when we are not in Him, we can do NOTHING. The fact that He bids us "come to Him for rest" (Matt 11:28) simply means we can come to Him - and therefore are already in Him, being already capable of doing SOMETHING instead of NOTHING.

If you are in him then there is no need to come to him.

As for Jesus telling his disciples they can do nothing without him, it is not the same as when someone WANTS Jesus to save them and do what he says.

Give it more thought. Think about it more carefully.

Jesus tells those who ARE IN HIM that they can do nothing without him. He is warning them not to LEAVE him.

As for those not yet saved, they can hear the words of God in the gospel and do what Jesus says and be saved.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, GT (1 Cor 2:14). And Jesus' words are spirit and life (John 6:63).

He said that He is in the Father and the Father in Him but He will yet go to His Father (John 14:10-12). So with us; we are in Him but we can yet come to Him.

Again, no such thing as coming to Jesus to be put in him if we are already in Him.

 

[Samie]

You're a waste of time, GT.

 

[Truster]

You're a waste of time, GT.

You can put her on ignore but she will keep stalking you. The secret is to truly ignore.

 

[God's Truth]

You're a waste of time, GT.

You can't defend your false doctrines so all you have are insults. What else do you have?

 

[God's Truth]

I have proven with scripture that people are not born in Christ.

People who want to be saved are put in Christ.

 

[oatmeal]

To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?

They are born again in Christ.

God, however, has the foreknowledge to know who will choose to believe him though that person does not yet exist.

God foreknew that Jeremiah would believe Him and thus could sanctify and ordain him before hand

In that sense, God foresanctified and foreordained him

God likewise foreknew us

 

[Samie]

They are born again in Christ.

God, however, has the foreknowledge to know who will choose to believe him though that person does not yet exist.

God foreknew that Jeremiah would believe Him and thus could sanctify and ordain him before hand

In that sense, God foresanctified and foreordained him

God likewise foreknew us

Agree.

God, Who knows the end from the beginning (Isa 46:9, 10), predestined us - descendants of Adam & Eve - to adoption as sons in Christ (Eph 1:4-6). Hence, we all are born in Him, instead of born in sin. This truth was emphasized by our Lord Himself in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son. see Luke 15:1-24.

1. Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold under the care of its shepherd.
2. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
3. Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We start out in life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned, and like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence the command to repent (Luke 13:3, 5).

Repentance is the Greek "metanoia" - change of mind for that which is good. Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead. IOW, it is overcoming evil with good.

The command to repent is the same command God made in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command God now wants all men to obey (Acts 17:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

But alas the brand of gospel being preached to the world is tainted with an impurity - the doctrine that people are born in sin, instead of born in Christ. That somehow explains why Christ has not yet returned: the gospel He wanted preached before He comes again is NOT being preached to the world. Preachers need to remove that impurity and in its stead tell people that they are born in Christ. Being in Christ, the ONLY Source of power for doing good, they are part of His Body and are therefore heaven-bound, UNLESS & UNTIL Christ Himself blots one's name out from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good (Exo 32:32,33; Rev 3:5). And there's hope while alive for judgement is rendered only when a person dies (Heb 9:27).

Hence, while alive, we all are enjoined to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Him on His throne even as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father on His throne (Rev 3:21).

When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), all NOT blotted out from the book of life will be allowed entry to the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

The apostle Paul has cautioned of a curse for preaching a gospel other than the gospel of Christ (Gal 1:6-9). Are you ready & willing to remove the impurity from the gospel that you preach?

 

[Samie]

The apostle Paul has cautioned of a curse for preaching a gospel other than the gospel of Christ (Gal 1:6-9). Are you ready & willing to remove the impurity from the gospel that you preach?

It appears that not a few are willing to remove the impurity from the gospel they preach. Seeing the impurity, why would a preacher not remove it?

 

[ttruscott]

If what you said above is true then there will be no little children - sucking child - in the holy mountain of God in the new heaven and the new earth.

But since there will be little children there, then your proposition is untrue.

See Isa 11:6-9; 65:17, 25.

Death is the wages for sin. No death comes to non-sinners, no angels die. Only sinners die so death proves sinfulness. But your use of quotes from Isaiah is very interesting...

 

[Samie]

Death is the wages for sin. No death comes to non-sinners, no angels die. Only sinners die so death proves sinfulness. But your use of quotes from Isaiah is very interesting...

If people are born in sin, then infants are born NOT in Christ because sin separates man from God, and therefore are born lost. If so, then why does Isaiah prophesy there well be infants in the holy mountain of God?

Those infants could not have been conceived in the new earth because there is no marriage in the new heaven and new earth (see Mark 12:24, 25). So from where are those little children in the holy mountain of God in the new earth? Calvinists and Arminians have a lot of explaining to do.