Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

[Samie]

God does not put disobedient unbelievers in Him.

He already had. They were born in Christ. And unless they repent, Christ will blot their names from the book of life, effectively removing them from being part of His body, expelled from membership in the family of God.

What do you think that scripture means?

It means what it says; NOT what you want it to mean.

I only believe God's Truth.

You believe in yourself instead of Christ? No wonder you have a twisted doctrine.

 

[Samie]

No one is born knowing God. I gave you scripture about how we have to be taught, persuaded, and convinced.

Your problem is you want people taught and learn while yet dead.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

The action words bolded above are acts done and applies only to those who are already alive, spiritually alive.

Your problem, GT, is you want to apply them to people who are yet dead for them to become alive. You teach that people are born in sin, and hence NOT in Christ, and therefore dead for Christ is our life (Col 3:4). You teach people must have faith first to be alive. That is wrong. You cannot have faith UNLESS you are first in Christ Who is our life:

1. IF you are born in sin, then you are not In Christ.
2. IF you are NOT in Christ, then you cannot bear fruit because only those in Him can bear fruit.
3. IF you cannot bear fruit, then you cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.

Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.

Preaching is done to those who already are alive, and NOT to make them alive. And we only are alive if we are IN Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4).

 

[jamie]

Who said we are? Are you hallucinating, too?

In post 155 somebody said, "We all were born in Christ. But we all like sheep went astray."

I thought it was you, but it sounds like you are denying saying it. Why?

 

[God's Truth]

He already had. They were born in Christ. And unless they repent, Christ will blot their names from the book of life, effectively removing them from being part of His body, expelled from membership in the family of God.

That already happened. And, it is about the Jews. It is also a warning to all who are in him by believing and repentance that if they sin, they had better repent.


Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,

 

[God's Truth]

Your problem is you want people taught and learn while yet dead.

I gave you many scriptures showing we must be taught, persuaded and convinced.

The action words bolded above are acts done and applies only to those who are already alive, spiritually alive.

No one is saved before they are saved. You don’t remember you said people are spiritually dead and God saves them? It is hard to keep track of false beliefs.

Your problem, GT, is you want to apply them to people who are yet dead for them to become alive. You teach that people are born in sin, and hence NOT in Christ, and therefore dead for Christ is our life (Col 3:4). You teach people must have faith first to be alive. That is wrong. You cannot have faith UNLESS you are first in Christ Who is our life:

Again, I gave you scripture about how faith comes to someone. Our faith does not come supernaturally to people who hate God. Our faith comes from hearing the supernatural message, the message that saves.

1. IF you are born in sin, then you are not In Christ.

The Bible says all are sinners and that Jesus came for sinners.

2. IF you are NOT in Christ, then you cannot bear fruit because only those in Him can bear fruit.

Jesus said that to people who were already in him and he was warning them not to leave him.

3. IF you cannot bear fruit, then you cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.

Again, faith comes from hearing, being taught, convinced and persuaded.

Preaching is done to those who already are alive, and NOT to make them alive. And we only are alive if we are IN Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4).

You need to reevaluate what you are saying. It does not hold up.

 

[Samie]

In post 155 somebody said, "We all were born in Christ. But we all like sheep went astray."

I thought it was you, but it sounds like you are denying saying it. Why?

No, I don't deny saying it.

But when you said "We are not born of our Brother.", I replied, "Who said we are"? because for me "to be born In Christ" is not the same as "to be born of Christ".

 

[God's Truth]

No, I don't deny saying it.

But when you said "We are not born of our Brother.", I replied, "Who said we are"? because for me "to be born In Christ" is not the same as "to be born of Christ".

That is a twisting of the words.

 

[nikolai_42]

Oh, so you're saying when Jesus said NOTHING, He really meant SOMETHING?

No. Note the difference in prepositions. If Christ gives me a gift, does that imply that I am actually IN Him? We literally can't do anything without Him - He gives us life and ability etc... But just because someone is breathing doesn't mean they are IN Christ. Ergo, not being in Christ doesn't mean we can do nothing (including believe)

And what did you do that caused God to unstop your ears?

What did you do that qualified you for God to make you aware?

Not a thing.

Of course. How were you able to do the spiritual act of APPROACHING GOD while still spiritually dead considering that you believe you were born in sin?

It does invalidate faith. Here's how:

1. If you were born in sin, then you were born NOT in Christ because sin separates man from God.

2. If you are NOT in Christ, then you cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit.

3. If you cannot bear fruit, then you cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.

4. If you cannot have faith, then you cannot believe because believing is exercising faith.

5. If you cannot believe, then as you teach, you cannot be in Christ.

Therefore a man born in sin, being born apart from Christ, can NEVER have faith and can NEVER be in Christ.

Since sin separates man from God, then who (child or not) has any hope for salvation since you seem to be saying you can't have faith in the presence of sin?

 

[Samie]

GT,

Born in sin, you are spiritually dead, being separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4). While yet spiritually dead, how were you able to hear, accept, believe and repent?

 

[God's Truth]

GT,

Born in sin, you are spiritually dead, being separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4). While yet spiritually dead, how were you able to hear, accept, believe and repent?

We are flesh and spirit.

Not all are completely depraved.

Those who only want to please their flesh do not want to come to God.

However, not all want to only please their flesh.

There are some who are more spiritually inclined and want more out of life.

 

[Samie]

No. Note the difference in prepositions. If Christ gives me a gift, does that imply that I am actually IN Him? We literally can't do anything without Him - He gives us life and ability etc... But just because someone is breathing doesn't mean they are IN Christ. Ergo, not being in Christ doesn't mean we can do nothing (including believe)

Christ said man can do NOTHING while yet NOT in Him. You said man can do SOMETHING while yet NOT in Christ. If you are correct, then Christ is wrong. But Christ can never be wrong. Ergo, it's you who's wrong.

Not a thing.

If you did NOTHING that qualified you for God to unstop your ears, can you tell me when and on what occasion did God unstop your ears?

Since sin separates man from God, then who (child or not) has any hope for salvation since you seem to be saying you can't have faith in the presence of sin?

Being born in Christ, every man is born saved. We all remain in the saved condition UNTIL Christ blots one's name from the book of life for NOT overcoming evil with good.

Your position is all are born in sin, hence all are born lost without hope of salvation, as I have shown here.

 

[nikolai_42]

Christ said man can do NOTHING while yet NOT in Him. You said man can do SOMETHING while yet NOT in Christ. If you are correct, then Christ is wrong. But Christ can never be wrong. Ergo, it's you who's wrong.

No. He didn't say we can do nothing while not IN Him, He said we can do nothing WITHOUT Him. There is a difference.

If you did NOTHING that qualified you for God to unstop your ears, can you tell me when and on what occasion did God unstop your ears?

On numerous occasions.

Being born in Christ, every man is born saved. We all remain in the saved condition UNTIL Christ blots one's name from the book of life for NOT overcoming evil with good.

Then He shouldn't have said what He did to Nicodemus :

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:3

Man's default position is not "saved". It is physically alive but spiritually dead.

Your position is all are born in sin, hence all are born lost without hope of salvation, as I have shown here.

And again I say, that stance makes sin triumphant over faith. Anyone who comes to God, by that reasoning, has to clean himself up first. So in a sense, you are correct. Man is born without hope of salvation - without hope of saving himself or even making himself acceptable to God. What you are proposing is works salvation.

 

[jamie]

No, I don't deny saying it.

But when you said "We are not born of our Brother.", I replied, "Who said we are"? because for me "to be born In Christ" is not the same as "to be born of Christ".

So who is the mother who gives birth in Christ, of Christ, by Christ, near Christ or however you want to slice it?

 

[Samie]

No. He didn't say we can do nothing while not IN Him, He said we can do nothing WITHOUT Him. There is a difference.

. The Greek is "choris" which means "apart" or "separate".

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

If people are born in sin then they are born APART or SEPARATE from Christ and can do NOTHING as Christ Himself said. But the fact that people are capable of doing SOMETHING - believe, accept, repent, that simply proves they are born IN Him, part of His Body. Unless Christ Himself dismembers us from His Body, we are in the saved condition.

 

[nikolai_42]

. The Greek is "choris" which means "apart" or "separate".

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

If people are born in sin then they are born APART or SEPARATE from Christ and can do NOTHING as Christ Himself said. But the fact that people are capable of doing SOMETHING - believe, accept, repent, that simply proves they are born IN Him, part of His Body. Unless Christ Himself dismembers us from His Body, we are in the saved condition.

I'm sorry. My mistake for not looking up the verse - thinking I was more familiar with it than I was. The reasoning still stands, but the scripture used admittedly does speak of not being able to do anything unless one abides in Christ.

But again, the fact remains that not all are in Christ. What Jesus said to Nicodemus shows that one is not born saved or else we could say that they were born born again. Thus not all are born saved. Thus man can do something apart from being IN Christ. As Paul says :

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17

And again, the idea that faith is prevented where there is sin only requires perfection before turning to God.

 

[Samie]

On numerous occasions.

So you are able to UNDO what God has done.
For me, what the IMMORTAL has done can NEVER by any mortal be UNDONE.

Then He shouldn't have said what He did to Nicodemus :

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:3

And that is why it was God Who caused our being born again:

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Man's default position is not "saved".

Man's default position at birth is "saved", being born in Christ. This condition is vividly demonstrated by our Lord in His parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son.

1. Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold under the care of its shepherd.
2. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
3. Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We begin life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). This is why we are all enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3,5).

The command for people to repent is the same command God issued in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command God now wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

Repentance is the Greek "metanoia" - change of mind for that which is good. Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead. IOW, it is overcoming evil with good (Rom 12:21).

Overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), all NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

 

[nikolai_42]

So you are able to UNDO what God has done.
For me, what the IMMORTAL has done can NEVER by any mortal be UNDONE.

And that is why it was God Who caused our being born again:

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Man's default position at birth is "saved", being born in Christ. This condition is vividly demonstrated by our Lord in His parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son.

1. Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold under the care of its shepherd.
2. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
3. Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We begin life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). This is why we are all enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3,5).

The command for people to repent is the same command God issued in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command God now wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

Repentance is the Greek "metanoia" - change of mind for that which is good. Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead. IOW, it is overcoming evil with good (Rom 12:21).

Overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), all NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

What was lost was lost in Adam.

 

[Truster]

So you are able to UNDO what God has done.
For me, what the IMMORTAL has done can NEVER by any mortal be UNDONE.

And that is why it was God Who caused our being born again:

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Man's default position at birth is "saved", being born in Christ. This condition is vividly demonstrated by our Lord in His parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son.

1. Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold under the care of its shepherd.
2. Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
3. Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

So with us all. We begin life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). This is why we are all enjoined to repent (Luke 13:3,5).

The command for people to repent is the same command God issued in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command God now wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

Repentance is the Greek "metanoia" - change of mind for that which is good. Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead. IOW, it is overcoming evil with good (Rom 12:21).

Overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), all NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

This is riddled with error, confusion and evil.

 

[Truster]

To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?

Adam, in his fallen and sinful state brought forth children in his own likeness and after his image. All men are therefore born in Adam's sinful state. Gen 5:3

You seem to think that a man is a sinner because he sins, but the truth of the matter is that man commits sin because, he is a sinner. All his intentions, thoughts, words and deeds are sin.

 

[Samie]

What was lost was lost in Adam.

So what do you think, according to Scriptures, was lost?