toldailytopic: What type, or how many sins does it take to lose ones salvation?

[chatmaggot]

chatmaggot-
Believing and knowing are not the same.

I currently have a thread about that very topic.

 

[ghost]

I believe, as Romans 8 says, that nothing can separate us from the Love of God.

"Nothing" would include you.

I believe, as Ephesians 1 says, that we have redemption through Christ's blood and that having trusted and believed we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

That seal is God's promise until the day of redemption.

I also believe that, as my Grandma used to say, if you are afraid that you have done something to have lost your salvation...then haven't lost your salvation. Implying that those that fear eternal separation from God are those that love God or else they would not be fearful of being separated from Him.

Since salvation cannot be lost (see Eph 1) then the point is moot.

However, I just can't buy into the idea that someone who has made a commitment to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, believing with all of their heart that His sacrifice is sufficient to save their soul, and trusting in the finished work of the cross...that they would be saved for eternity IF they later turned their back on God, totally rejected Him, and stopped believing what they once did.

In the same way you cannot un-know your wife, you cannot un-know God. You are one spirit with Him 1 Cor 6:17. This union cannot be broken. It is no longer you who live, but Christ Gal 2:20. You died with Him Col 3:3 and you will live with Him 2 Tim 2:11. In this life, you should now be able to see that it is impossible to undue what has been solidified. After the day of redemption, you will not think as you think now. You will not have the same mindset as you do now. You will fully know just as you have been fully known, and you cannot be unknown.

Most people would say "Well, they weren't really Christians to begin with." You can say that...but in their heart of hearts, in their minds, they truly believed at one point in their lives.

Being a Christian is not mental ascent. It is a new creation. This cannot be undone. My previous post explains in detail why that is.

For example, suppose someone is a "new Christian" and are "weak in the faith". They meet someone who is a "seasoned" skeptic and atheist who is able to put doubts in their mind. As their relationship grows this new Christian decides that perhaps they made a mistake. They believed something that they no longer believe. They then spend the rest of their life engulfed in atheistic circles, forums, conventions, and speaking out against Christianity and the God that they once believed in. This person has chosen to "give up" the salvation that he once had.

No, if they are a new creation in Christ, they are one spirit with Him. Again, they have already died to who they were in Adam. That person cannot be resurrected, anymore than dead flesh from a circumcision can be reattached. This is why people like godrulz hold to their false beliefs. He believes that everything is centered around choices or "free will". You know that I am adamantly opposed to the Calvinist view of determinism which is an extremest view. However, so is the view of free will, held by most, an extremest view. It is not an either/or possibility. Adam had no free will to deal with the sin problem. No man has. Only God sending His Son was the appropriate sacrifice for sin. No one is free to come to God any other way. We are all sold into bondage to sin. We are all slaves of sin. However, God has good news, and man can only come to God through believing the good news. The good news (Gospel) has the power to save those of us who are dead because of sin. The determinist misses this important point. We are free to believe or reject this Gospel. If we reject it, we stay a slave to sin, and dead. If we receive it, we are made alive and a slave of righteousness. You belong to Him. You do not get to choose to become the slave of another. You have been bought, and you are not your own.

How long does it take for someone to become a REAL Christian?

The moment they believed.

When one decides to accept that they are a sinner and trust in the work that Jesus has done and become a Christian are they then a Christian? Later, in their young Christian state, they are led away as my scenario above illustrates. Are they still a Christian? Or do we have to go back and say they weren't a true Christian because they were able to be led away?

(see above)

Let me get back to Ephesians 1 and tie it in with Revelation 22. Notice in Ephesians 1 it says "...until the redemption of the purchased possession..." They are sealed until the redemption. What happens after the redemption? Are they still sealed?

No, they have a new body, and they cannot return to their former state.

In Revelation 22 the story seems kind of weird. As I stated earlier, Revelation 22 is after the new heaven and nee earth is created. After the great white throne judgement, sheep and goats, millennial reign, after the new Jerusalem, and John is told that there are people outside of the city gates of this new Jerusalem that just descended from Heaven on a newly created earth that cannot enter because they are "...dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." These are people living on the new earth but are not allowed to partake of the tree of life! Who are these people? Are these people that once they made it to the "afterlife" decided to "give up" their eternal glory for whatever reason? If it can happen on the NEW Earth...do you think it can happen on this old corrupted one that we live on?

This is another subject that I may address in the future. I hope my responses were helpful.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Just one. Matthew 12:32 (KJV), Luke 12:10 (KJV)

"Neither in this world, nor the world to come."


Saul of Tarsus blasphemed the Spirit. He was the first blasphemer saved, and was a pattern to those that follow after.

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God..."

It is a parenthesis between "this world" and "the world to come".

 

[steko]

"Nothing" would include you.

That seal is God's promise until the day of redemption.

Since salvation cannot be lost (see Eph 1) then the point is moot.

In the same way you cannot un-know your wife, you cannot un-know God. You are one spirit with Him 1 Cor 6:17. This union cannot be broken. It is no longer you who live, but Christ Gal 2:20. You died with Him Col 3:3 and you will live with Him 2 Tim 2:11. In this life, you should now be able to see that it is impossible to undue what has been solidified. After the day of redemption, you will not think as you think now. You will not have the same mindset as you do now. You will fully know just as you have been fully known, and you cannot be unknown.

Being a Christian is not mental ascent. It is a new creation. This cannot be undone. My previous post explains in detail why that is. No, if they are a new creation in Christ, they are one spirit with Him. Again, they have already died to who they were in Adam. That person cannot be resurrected, anymore than dead flesh from a circumcision can be reattached. This is why people like godrulz hold to their false beliefs. He believes that everything is centered around choices or "free will". You know that I am adamantly opposed to the Calvinist view of determinism which is an extremest view. However, so is the view of free will, held by most, and extremest view. It is not an either or possibility. Adam had no free will to deal with the sin problem. No man has. Only God sending His Son was the appropriate sacrifice for sin. No one is free to come to God any other way. We are all sold into bondage to sin. We are all slaves of sin. However, God has good news, and man can only come to God through believing the good news. The good news (Gospel) has the power to save those of us who are dead because of sin. The determinist misses this important point. We are free to believe or reject this Gospel. If we reject it, we stay a slave to sin, and dead. If we receive it, we are made alive and a slave of righteousness. You belong to Him. You do not get to choose to become the slave of another. You have been bought, and you are not your own.

The moment they believed.

(see above)

No, they have a new body, and they cannot return to their former state.

This is another subject that I may address in the future. I hope my responses were helpful.

:thumb:

 

[Guyver]

Hebrews 6.

Also, Jesus did say something about continuing and enduring.

Not to mention much discussion about false Christs and false believers.....those that "appear" saved but are not.

 

[chatmaggot]

In the same way you cannot un-know your wife, you cannot un-know God.

But you can divorce your wife and undo that relationship.

 

[ghost]

But you can divorce your wife and undo that relationship.

I'm talking about knowing in the Biblical sense. You cannot un-ring a bell.

 

[Nick M]

But you can divorce your wife and undo that relationship.

You can not divorce God. He can divorce you, and he told the Body of Christ that wouldn't happen. We are his body, and he can not deny himself.

 

[Stripe]

You can not divorce God. He can divorce you, and he told the Body of Christ that wouldn't happen. We are his body, and he can not deny himself.

I think the adoption imagery is better. We are adopted into Christ. We might come to rail against that adoption, but we our transformation into sons of God cannot be undone just as a son cannot become not his father's offspring.

 

[chatmaggot]

In summary, it seems that the following is what most seem to adhere to:

If one professes to be a Christian and believes in their heart of hearts that Jesus is the Christ who shed His blood for our sins and they recognize that they are sinners in need of a Savior and they trust in Jesus for the firgiveness of their sins, then it is impossible for that person to stop believing that at any time.

Because if someone did profess to be a Christian and then later converted to Islam, the only options would be (1) They weren't really a Chrisitian to begin with OR (2) They are still saved even though they no longer believe what they once did.

 

[Stripe]

... it is impossible for that person to stop believing.

I don't believe that.

 

[chatmaggot]

I don't believe that.

I don't either...but based upon the conversations in this thread it seems that it is implied. You cannot ever stop being a Christian or you were never a REAL Christian to begin with.

 

[ghost]

I don't either...but based upon the conversations in this thread it seems that it is implied. You cannot ever stop being a Christian or you were never a REAL Christian to begin with.

I had thought I was clear on why this is the case. How you've read what I've posted and still not grasp it, I don't know :sigh:

I'll try this again.

Let's go back to the "knowing" your wife (in the intimate sense).

There is now way possible for someone who has been intimate with his wife to un-know her. In the same way that once you rang the bell, you cannot deny that the bell has been rung unless you are in self-denial. In other words, you still know it, but you are lying to yourself if you say that the bell has not been rung.

Someone who has come to know God is one spirit with Him. They cannot un-know God. It is impossible, unless they are lying to themselves and others. They cannot undue the union. You cannot stop believing in what you know is true.

The only possible way you can stop believing is if your belief was a mental ascent but did not truly know God. It would be like believing that bells can be rung, but never having known that the bell that was rung.

Beyond that, if there is no God, then believing and then ceasing from believing makes our discussion look silly.

I don't know how else to make it any clearer.

 

[chatmaggot]

...Someone who has come to know God is one spirit with Him. They cannot un-know God. It is impossible, unless they are lying to themselves and others. They cannot undue the union. You cannot stop believing in what you know is true.

The only possible way you can stop believing is if your belief was a mental ascent but did not truly know God. It would be like believing that bells can be rung, but never having known that the bell that was rung...

What I have observed is that there are people on this forum who claim to know God in that intimate way you describe...yet you claim they are going to hell.

...The problem we experienced, was that the exposure to theological literature allowed to us and our dispie brethren, was so severely limited, that those with whom we were worshiping had never even heard of Calvinism or Reformed teaching or Covenant Theology.

It was only by the providence and grace of God that we learned the true gospel proclaimed outside our dispie "church" walls. . . several years after our conversions.

And by then, through our private studies, the Holy Spirit had seeded the covenant promises in our hearts, and it was this truth that we followed, by the Lord's grace and guidance.

It was a long journey . . .

So glad you and we were brought to the same place of blessing!

Nang

But if they know God in the way you describe...them going to Hell is not even a possibility.

I'll add striving to sin less as the #5 indicator that you are going to hell.

Thank you for admitting that you are among the lost.

Here is someone who claims to know God intimately but you insist she is going to Hell.

 

[ghost]

My last post is indisputable. You ignore it because it doesn't fit your world view.

Be wrong. It's your choice.

 

[chatmaggot]

My last post is indisputable. You ignore it because it doesn't fit your world view.

Be wrong. It's your choice.

Okay. You can't un-know something that you know. That is a far cry from saying it is indisputable evidence that you cannot ever lose or give up ones salvation. How does that show that you cannot choose to give up the gift of salvation that was given to you?

 

[ghost]

Okay. You can't un-know something that you know. That is a far cry from saying it is indisputable evidence that you cannot ever lose or give up ones salvation. How does that show that you cannot choose to give up the gift of salvation that was given to you?

I've covered this in detail on this thread.

Do you disagree as to what I've shown salvation is? If so, you need to first disprove what I have shown that salvation is, and then prove what you think it is.

Good luck!

 

[chatmaggot]

I've covered this in detail on this thread.

Do you disagree as to what I've shown salvation is? If so, you need to first prove what I have shown that salvation is, and then prove what you think it is.

Good luck!

Nang claims to know God in the way that you describe yet you continually claim that she is lost and going to Hell.

It seems that you are stating that one who knows God in the way you describe cannot lose or choose to give up their salvation yet someone who does claim to know God in the way you describe is going to Hell.

How can they go to Hell if they claim to know God in the intimate way you have described and claim at the same time that those who know God in the intimate way you describe can never go to Hell?

 

[chatmaggot]

Just for future reference...the words believe and know have been used quite a bit in this thread. I would encourage people to define what they mean by believe and know as I have tried to get people to do in this thread:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77971

Angels know God intimately...and they can choose to give up their eternal existence with God.

 

[ghost]

Nang claims to know God in the way that you describe yet you continually claim that she is lost and going to Hell.

Okay.

It seems that you are stating that one who knows God in the way you describe cannot lose or choose to give up their salvation yet someone who does claim to know God in the way you describe is going to Hell.

She does not know God in the way I described. Why do you think that? I believe she, and many others on this site who claim Christ, know about God through their various religious views. What someone says they believe about who God is and what he has done is evidence of someone who does or does not know God.