toldailytopic: What type, or how many sins does it take to lose ones salvation?

ghost

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That was my point.

Everyone before the cross isn't in Hell because they didn't obey every single part of the Law.
Then the Law has nothing to do with whether or not someone is in hell.

If they were, then I could just as easily say that everyone after the cross is in heaven because they profess to believe the Gospel (Acts 16:31).
No, God does not allow you to believe whatever you want and still be a believer.
People often talk of OSAS as if it is a secret club that people can't escape from even if they want to.
No, it's not a "secret club". Everyone who is saved is always saved. The points I made early on dispute any theories or personal experiences you have encountered that contradict the clear teaching of the Bible. Dead men have no free will. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. When dead men hear the Gospel and believe it, they are saved. There is no message that can take that away from them.
 

MrDeets

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 17th, 2011 08:00 AM


toldailytopic: What type, or how many sins does it take to lose ones salvation?


Only 1- the sin is which is strong enough to break the seal of the Holy Spirit. Guess which sin it is:

Spoiler
There ain't one!! PRAISE THE LORD, HALLELUJAH, AMEN
 

Stripe

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So, those who clean the outside of the cup are brothers?

As long as they do not act in a manner that is un-Christian, why should they be thrown out of the church?
 

ghost

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As long as they do not act in a manner that is un-Christian, why should they be thrown out of the church?
What does that even mean? A Christian is not a Christian based on what they do but what they believe. Are you a Catholic? Mormon? godrulz?
 

Nick M

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Abraham, Noah, David, Rahab, did not keep the Law. They had faith because they believed God. God never cut them off.

He moved to kill Moses, and relented when his wife circumcised the child on the spot. And he took his Spirit from Saul for disobediance. And he took the kingdom from Solomon's son because of Solomon's disobediance.

All I am suggesting is that perhaps OSAS isn't as "rigid" as some say it is.

Then what does it take to become unsaved? As the topic of the day asks.
 

chatmaggot

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Then what does it take to become unsaved? As the topic of the day asks.

I believe, as Romans 8 says, that nothing can separate us from the Love of God.

I believe, as Ephesians 1 says, that we have redemption through Christ's blood and that having trusted and believed we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I also believe that, as my Grandma used to say, if you are afraid that you have done something to have lost your salvation...then haven't lost your salvation. Implying that those that fear eternal separation from God are those that love God or else they would not be fearful of being separated from Him.

However, I just can't buy into the idea that someone who has made a commitment to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, believing with all of their heart that His sacrifice is sufficient to save their soul, and trusting in the finished work of the cross...that they would be saved for eternity IF they later turned their back on God, totally rejected Him, and stopped believing what they once did.

Most people would say "Well, they weren't really Christians to begin with." You can say that...but in their heart of hearts, in their minds, they truly believed at one point in their lives. But for whatever reason they stopped. For example, suppose someone is a "new Christian" and are "weak in the faith". They meet someone who is a "seasoned" skeptic and atheist who is able to put doubts in their mind. As their relationship grows this new Christian decides that perhaps they made a mistake. They believed something that they no longer believe. They then spend the rest of their life engulfed in atheistic circles, forums, conventions, and speaking out against Christianity and the God that they once believed in. This person has chosen to "give up" the salvation that he once had.

Now again...people will say that this person wasn't REALLY a Christian then. But why not? They were new to the faith and believed what they had been told and what they had read in the Bible. They were a young Christian that was not strong enough to see through the garbage the skeptic/atheist was telling them. How long does it take for someone to become a REAL Christian?

When one decides to accept that they are a sinner and trust in the work that Jesus has done and become a Christian are they then a Christian? Later, in their young Christian state, they are led away as my scenario above illustrates. Are they still a Christian? Or do we have to go back and say they weren't a true Christian because they were able to be led away?

Let me get back to Ephesians 1 and tie it in with Revelation 22. Notice in Ephesians 1 it says "...until the redemption of the purchased possession..." They are sealed until the redemption. What happens after the redemption? Are they still sealed?

In Revelation 22 the story seems kind of weird. As I stated earlier, Revelation 22 is after the new heaven and nee earth is created. After the great white throne judgement, sheep and goats, millennial reign, after the new Jerusalem, and John is told that there are people outside of the city gates of this new Jerusalem that just descended from Heaven on a newly created earth that cannot enter because they are "...dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." These are people living on the new earth but are not allowed to partake of the tree of life! Who are these people? Are these people that once they made it to the "afterlife" decided to "give up" their eternal glory for whatever reason? If it can happen on the NEW Earth...do you think it can happen on this old corrupted one that we live on?
 

steko

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Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

παντελής
pantelḗs; gen. panteloús, masc.-fem., neut. pantelés, adj. from pás (G3956), any, all, and télos (G5056), end. Complete, whole, entire. In the NT expression eis tó pantelés (eis [G1519], unto; tó pantelés [neut.]), unto the completion of all, means completely, wholly, entirely, as referring to time, always, forever (Heb_7:25)-Spiros Zodhiates/Complete Word Study Dictionary
 

Stripe

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What does that even mean? A Christian is not a Christian based on what they do but what they believe. Are you a Catholic? Mormon? godrulz?

My contribution has not been to judge who is a Christian and who is not. We can safely leave that up to God and stick to deciding things we can actually see.

We aren't capable of seeing a man's heart and saying whether he will never turn away from his faith. So whether he is saved regardless of his rejection or whether he was never saved is not a judgement we need to make.
 

ghost

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My contribution has not been to judge who is a Christian and who is not. We can safely leave that up to God and stick to deciding things we can actually see.

We aren't capable of seeing a man's heart and saying whether he will never turn away from his faith. So whether he is saved regardless of his rejection or whether he was never saved is not a judgement we need to make.
That is contrary to everything Jesus and Paul tell us.

How do you judge false teachers, false prophets, wolves, etc, other than by what they say?
 

Stripe

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That is contrary to everything Jesus and Paul tell us. How do you judge false teachers, false prophets, wolves, etc, other than by what they say?
You can judge a man's words against scripture. But you cannot judge a man's heart. Whether he is saved or not is a decision that God makes. Thus worrying about whether he was never saved or if he lost his salvation is rather a pointless distinction.

Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.
 

Lighthouse

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And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
-Ephesians 4:30

Nothing can separate us from His love in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:38-39
:thumb:

Does 'salvation' mean 'everlasting life'?
Yes.

Run for your lives! Steko's account has been hacked by Joey Arnold!
:chuckle:

There is no such thing as losing salvation.
:thumb:

That would be like Jesus letting go of Himself.
:thumb:

This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
:thumb:

That's usually the response that people give. For those that have gone the way of apostasy...it is said that they were never Christians to begin with.

Dan Barker and other former ministers have disagreed on this point. By all accounts they were "Christian" because they believed. They believed and they lived out their faith and they taught others to do the same. They actually believed. But for whatever reason they have chosen to no longer believe.

If Dan Barker would have died during his ministry days (when he states that he believed)...do you think he would have spent eternity with the Lord?

It seems that Dan Barker gave up his salvation when he chose to no longer believe.
If he truly believes he was wrong when he believed in Christianity then his honest answer if asked if he was ever saved would be, "No." Why should we argue with him?

If he was saved then he still is, if he is not now he never was. His current belief has no bearing on that.

Not according to Jesus. Matthew 5:21-30. He lists several things that will result in judgement and hell.
Fool.

Inzl Kett, I know you would like believing Jesus to be a Get Out of Jail Free Card and immunity from committing any other sins, but it doesn't work that way.
Scripture?

ALL sins are equal and they all can lead to loss of salvation.
Scripture? [For both statements]

So, believing in Jesus will not save you from loss of salvation when you screw your neighbor's wife or are angry with the guy who cut you off on the freeway.
The guy who cut me off isn't a Christian and is therefore not my brother. At least according to you, because if he was a Christian before cutting me off he lost that when he cut me off.

So, do we have to confess and repent every time we sin?

What if I get angry at a brother and get hit by a car and die before I confess and repent?

...to lose one's justification? A single mortal sin.
Support your claim.

Then everyone before the cross is in hell.
No, they went to Abraham's bosom and Jesus came and got them after He died.

However, I just can't buy into the idea that someone who has made a commitment to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, believing with all of their heart that His sacrifice is sufficient to save their soul, and trusting in the finished work of the cross...that they would be saved for eternity IF they later turned their back on God, totally rejected Him, and stopped believing what they once did.
I can't buy into the idea that anyone who had His life would ever want to give it up.

In Revelation 22 the story seems kind of weird. As I stated earlier, Revelation 22 is after the new heaven and nee earth is created. After the great white throne judgement, sheep and goats, millennial reign, after the new Jerusalem, and John is told that there are people outside of the city gates of this new Jerusalem that just descended from Heaven on a newly created earth that cannot enter because they are "...dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." These are people living on the new earth but are not allowed to partake of the tree of life! Who are these people? Are these people that once they made it to the "afterlife" decided to "give up" their eternal glory for whatever reason? If it can happen on the NEW Earth...do you think it can happen on this old corrupted one that we live on?
The lake of fire is outside the city gates.

My contribution has not been to judge who is a Christian and who is not. We can safely leave that up to God and stick to deciding things we can actually see.

We aren't capable of seeing a man's heart and saying whether he will never turn away from his faith. So whether he is saved regardless of his rejection or whether he was never saved is not a judgement we need to make.
[Jesus]Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.[/Jesus]
-Matthew 12:34

[Jesus]A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.[/Jesus]
-Luke 6:45

That is contrary to everything Jesus and Paul tell us.

How do you judge false teachers, false prophets, wolves, etc, other than by what they say?
See.
 

ghost

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You can judge a man's words against scripture.
Yep.
But you cannot judge a man's heart.
Yes, you can and should.

Matthew 15:18
"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man."

Whether he is saved or not is a decision that God makes.
Based on what he believes. Again, how can you know a false teacher unless you know what he believes? What is the matter with you people? Can you really not think for yourselves?
Thus worrying about whether he was never saved or if he lost his salvation is rather a pointless distinction.
A person needs to know if they are lost. Those who teach that salvation can be lost, forfeited, etc., are not saved.
 

Stripe

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[Jesus]Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.[/Jesus]
-Matthew 12:34

[Jesus]A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.[/Jesus]
-Luke 6:45

We can judge a man according to his words. But for the man who professed faith but then rejected it we make a pointless debate out of whether the was ever saved.
 

Lighthouse

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You can judge a man's words against scripture. But you cannot judge a man's heart. Whether he is saved or not is a decision that God makes. Thus worrying about whether he was never saved or if he lost his salvation is rather a pointless distinction.

Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.
First look at the two verses I posted in response to you in my post #72, then look at this one:

[Jesus]Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.[/Jesus]
-John 7:24

We are not to judge whether someone is a brother based on outward appearance.:nono: And we can know their heart by their words.
 

voltaire

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They were a young Christian that was not strong enough to see through the garbage the skeptic/atheist was telling them. How long does it take for someone to become a REAL Christian?--Chatmaggot.

A real Christian will believe God regardless of the garbage the skeptic/atheist is telling them. You can easily fool yourself into thinking that you believe God and his word, but you will not know for sure until you become tested and pass. I have been fed the same atheist garbage that these "christians" who later turn and rebel have been fed. It didn't make me doubt. It made me angry and it made me look further into the matter, but I always trusted God and knew that any doubt I had was a result of not knowing the whole story. God has the whole story and I trust him and always will.
 

Nick M

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I believe, as Ephesians 1 says, that we have redemption through Christ's blood and that having trusted and believed we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Right, you can't save yourself. And Paul says through Revelation from Jesus himself this won't be undone.

...that they would be saved for eternity IF they later turned their back on God, totally rejected Him, and stopped believing what they once did.

So what? You can't save yourself, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit. How can you undo it?

Most people would say "Well, they weren't really Christians to begin with."

That is what I think. They never really trusted him. I will be honest and say you can not convince me otherwise, without scripture.

For example, suppose someone is a "new Christian" and are "weak in the faith".

Our faith in the way most main stream "Christians" mean does not save us. If used as a synonym for believe, then that is the acceptance of the free gift, it is an event, not a lifetime process.

They meet someone who is a "seasoned" skeptic and atheist who is able to put doubts in their mind. As their relationship grows this new Christian decides that perhaps they made a mistake. They believed something that they no longer believe. They then spend the rest of their life engulfed in atheistic circles, forums, conventions, and speaking out against Christianity and the God that they once believed in. This person has chosen to "give up" the salvation that he once had.

Kind of moot, since this scenario doesn't exist. They never believed.


Let me get back to Ephesians 1 and tie it in with Revelation 22. Notice in Ephesians 1 it says "...until the redemption of the purchased possession..." They are sealed until the redemption. What happens after the redemption?

The purchased possession is our incorruptable bodies that have flesh that doesn't covet. The law is written on the heart, causing us to walk in his statutes. This is why we are not in the New Covenant. It hasn't happened yet.

In Revelation 22 the story seems kind of weird. As I stated earlier, Revelation 22 is after the new heaven and nee earth is created.

He is looking back and summarizing. I make that decision from the context. However, I don't believe anybody after the departure of the church is sealed. Only we are.

People after the fullness of the gentiles are not saved unconditionaly. This is part of the big rift of Acts 15, and the rift between James and Paul. Paul said the gentiles have it right now, and have not earned it. Peter says they shall be saved, future tense, as the gentiles are, present tense. The body of Christ is sealed awaiting the incorruptable flesh.

People are still alive when he comes from the clouds. I don't know why people can't reproduce at that point. He will rule with an iron hand.

Thus worrying about whether he was never saved or if he lost his salvation is rather a pointless distinction.

How can you say that? Then there is no reason to spread the gospel.
 
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