Why would anyone who believes the Gospel even consider that it is possible?
toldailytopic: What type, or how many sins does it take to lose ones salvation?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Sheila B
Member
This is a topic I struggle with as well. May I suggest a radical solution to the dilemma?
But aren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?
Of course they are!
So what's the answer???
May I suggest the following 3rd option to the two options I have stated above. My theory is that these folks who are saved yet no longer desire to be with God are indeed sealed because of their acceptance of Jesus work on the cross. Christ will not deny them because He will not deny Himself. Yet at the same time God will not force them to go where they do not want to go. Therefore God will give them the opportunity to spend eternity apart from Him and His loving grace. For them... there is a choice on the day of redemption. Therefore for these rare instances... on the their day of judgement God will say...
"Your sins have been covered by my blood, therefore you can enter heaven and spend eternity with Me. Yet I know that you no longer desire to be with me and therefore I respect your wishes and will allow you the choice to live with or without me eternally. Choose this day who you will serve."
And at that point they can choose to keep their standing in Christ's body or reject their gift and live apart from Him eternally.
How's that for a bombshell?
Hardly a radical notion. The early church fathers debated the topic thouroughly and ended up with a similar notion.
The "sealing" of the Holy Spirit is called by them a "mark" or "character impressed upon the soul" that is never effaced: showing that God did indeed regenerate the soul to a divine sonship creation and born anew.
BUT that free will remains and one can indeed change one's mind.
That character mark remins on the soul even in hell. It is visible to all other souls after death, so that in hell all the damned can see that a person was "saved" or "regenerated" by God and yet denied to remain in sonship by its own free will.
The prodigal son is not necessarily bound to return, iow.
Sheila B
Member
The chasm that is in place so that "those of you that would wish to, cannot pass to the other side" goes both ways. The elect (Abraham's bosom before the Cross, heaven proper after) are separated from hell by a chasm and once in either place there is no wandering around back and forth.
Prison denotes a desire to leave permanently, ie, escape and never return.
Chasm denotes a desire to leave temporarily so as to bring relief to the suffering.
Immensely different!
Sheila B
Member
Very true!!
The catholic Church declares the test is over at the moment of death. Free will remains intact until that final test of faith is passed through. Then the soul is confirmed in faith or without it, depending on the final pass/fail.
The call for perseverance is scriptural and cannot be ignored.
Sheila B
Member
It seems that many believ a third scenario that has been discussed in later posts. (I am reading backwards)
Anyway,
The prodigal son never ceases to be a son but he is a dead son. Dead. Yet a son.The point is: the prodigal son is free to return or not return! We die when we choose to separate ourselves from the Father.
God never undoes His part which is to make a true son of a soul who desires Him. Yet we can still refuse to remain in the house of the Father!
If it were impossible to resist that final grace, why all the warnings and concern over perseverance????
Sheila B
Member
It seems that many believe a third scenario that has been discussed in later posts. (I am reading backwards)
Anyway,
The prodigal son never ceases to be a son but he is a dead son. Dead. Yet a son. The point is: the prodigal son is free to return or not return! We die when we choose to separate ourselves from the Father.
God never undoes His part which is to make a true son of a soul who desires Him. Yet we can still refuse to remain in the house of the Father!
If it were impossible to resist that final grace, why all the warnings and concern over perseverance????
That is completely the opposite of what Paul says.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
Sheila B
Member
The point might be: God loves us even if, God forfend, we refuse His final grace at death. He never stops loving all His creatures, even the damned.
He hates sin and loves the sinner eternally. He still cares for them in hell. Hell is also God's providence also, isn't it?
WOW! Your Grandma sounds awesome. I like the way she thinks!!! That does describe true love, imho. The greatest saints were still weeping over their sins on their death beds! Some see that as bad, as if they had no "assurance", but then your Grandma would say it is because they loved much!! I really like that, thanks for sharing. It makes me more willing to weep over my poor sins because of LOVE!
Sealing is a mark. Like preganacy, it is the hope of birth of resurrection. But the carrier of this mark can abort the new life within. It does not go away as does physically aborting a foetus, but the mark of eternal sonship remains on the soul for eternity. It just does not become fully fruitful if rejected, and it remains a mark of the "first fruit" within that soul eternally. How sad. How tragic.
wow. . . something to ponder
After all, it happened in Paradise!! One surely will fall, but one must repent!
edit: hmmmmm, the "fetus" does not go away, either, but lives eternally. so does the "mark" remain eternally. the first fruit seal never fades away, but dwells within the soul that rejected it, dead, as it were.
Sheila B
Member
I see that that verse confirms the discussion of the testing as a necessary ingredient until the final breath of the elect. We must test ourselves. As chat's grandma says: if we weep over our poor failings, we are passing the test!
That means, we are repenting of our weaknesses because we love God so much! It is a sign of assurance that our faith is alive and well.
Examination of conscience is a must according to Paul, isn't it?
Sheila B
Member
That means God will not revoke them. It does not say we have no control over it or them.
The giving by God is firm and sure. Acceptance by us must be persevered in till death.
It happened to Adam & Eve, because they were not perfect. Perfection for man was God's plan, and those in Christ have been made perfect Heb 10:14. Being perfect excludes the possibility of doing or being anything less than perfect, just as the term implies.
You guys really need to stop making things up.
A person is either in Christ (in the faith) or in Adam (not having come to faith). There is no jumping from one to the other. A child of God cannot return to Adam, having been crucified with Christ, and now a new creation. You know NOTHING about the Gospel.
Sheila B
Member
exterior vs interior is the point.
Only at Judgement day will the truth be known. Then those who were thought of as great, if they interiorly were not, will be manifest, etc. And vise versa, those who were maligned but innocent, all will know the truth.
Sheila B
Member
... Some mens sins will be made manifest, yet the sins of others will appear later. .
I Timothy 5:24
You have no idea what the gift of salvation is, nor will you accept what it is if you hear it.
You can only know what someone believes by what they say, not by what they do, that is the point Jesus is making about the Pharisees. The Pharisees of today will tell you that it is what you do that proves what you believe.
Sheila B
Member
The newly born are perfect. But unless they fall over dead that second, they will have failings over their life time. "Here is the perseverance of the saints."
Just men made perfect are those in heaven celebrating the divine liturgy in festal gathering. Hebrews 12:23
No one here on earth has yet been made perfect. Well, if they have, they are surely few in number!
Sheila B
Member
accurate doctrine (what they say) vs walking the walk (what they do) is the point of that, imho
Precisely why Jesus exhorts the crowd to obey all they say, but NOT to do what they do. Believe the words from the Chair of Moses (Holy Spirit's guidance), not the individual walk of the leaders (free will to obey themselves, what they teach).
False.
The newly born are not perfect. Perfection excludes the possibility of failing. You need to learn what words mean.
Again, you contradict the Bible Hebrews 10:14No one here on earth has yet been made perfect. Well, if they have, they are surely few in number!
As a lost person, who does not know Jesus or the Gospel, you look at the flesh, because you are fleshly minded, not having the mind of Christ.