The Trinity

[God's Truth]

John's baptism led up to repentance and the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 3:11).

Jesus' baptism made people followers of Christ (John 3:22-30).

Two different baptisms.

People who had been baptized by John were baptized again into Jesus' baptism (John 4:1-2).

Much later Paul runs across twelve men who had been baptized by John, but not into Jesus' baptism (Acts 19:1-5).

Nothing you say can nullify the truth that I gave.

Here it is again:

Jesus wouldn't come until they repented.

John 1:23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'"

John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-80).

 

[JudgeRightly]

You look to divide where there is no division. Paul taught the same gospel as the Twelve Apostles to the Lamb.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Did you read that?

You said Paul did not preach that. Paul said he preached it to all.

Nowhere in either of the verses you quote does Paul say that you must obey to be saved.

He DOES say, however, that they can prove their repentance by their deeds.

That is not the same as being saved by works, nor is he saying that faith without works is dead.

they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

REPENT AND HAVE FAITH. No works mentioned, because they are not required.

they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

REPENT AND TURN TO GOD. No works mentioned, because they are not required.

So yes, it was a different message than what the twelve were teaching.

Paul calls it "my gospel," and not just once... But a couple of times.

This thread goes through this discussion on how and why Paul's message was different than the twelve Apostles' message.
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-does-paul-call-it-my-gospel.2299491/

 

[lifeisgood]

Jesus says if.

What don't you get about if?

Is this clearer for you:

…unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 5:32.
…unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 18:3.
…unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart; Matthew 18:35.
…unless you repent, you too will all perish; Luke 13:3.
… unless they are born of water and the Spirit; John 3:5.
Unless I wash you, you have no part with me; John 13:8.
…unless it dies; 1 Corinthians 15:36.


Did you read that?

YOU. WILL. NEVER. ENTER. UNLESS.

When we are saved, we have entered the kingdom.

You thought I would not read all the verses in its context.

Matthew 5:32 – talking about divorce.

Matthew 18:3 – unless you accept me you will not be able to enter into my rest.

Matthew 18:35 – true repentance comes from the heart and God knows about it.

Luke 13:3 - evidently, the people Jesus is addressing had assumed in their minds that the judgments suffered by these people was because of their great sins; they reasoned that they themselves were much more righteous, and would not suffer such—Jesus tells them differently

John 3:5 – talking about natural birth and spiritual birth. John 3:6 Jesus speaks that the spiritual birth is brought about God alone and neither is speaking of water baptism.

John 18:3 – talking about the constant cleansing needed regarding the Believer’s walk before the Lord, which the washing of the feet [our walk], at least in part, represented.

1 Corinthians 15:36 - Paul takes this from Christ’s words from John 12:24. It is talking about bringing forth much fruit, which is the nature of harvest.

 

[lifeisgood]

Nothing you say can nullify the truth that I gave.

All I can say is for you to read the text in its context; otherwise, you are simply parroting a pretext.

Here it is again:

Jesus wouldn't come until they repented.

John 1:23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'"

John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-80).

And here is my answer again:

John's baptism led up to repentance and the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 3:11).

Jesus' baptism made people followers of Christ (John 3:22-30).

Two different baptisms.

People who had been baptized by John were baptized again into Jesus' baptism (John 4:1-2).

Much later Paul runs across twelve men who had been baptized by John, but not into Jesus' baptism (Acts 19:1-5).

 

[popsthebuilder]

Why do you ignore all the 'believe' scriptures first for the 'obey' scriptures?



You have no idea what faith James is talking about.

Belief brings about obedience. How can it not if it is real?

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

 

[lifeisgood]

Belief brings about obedience. How can it not if it is real?

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

gt has it the other way around.

 

[lifeisgood]

So good to hear you say that. I have been putting up with their verbal attacks for years and trying to get them to keep talking about the Bible and not verbally abuse. They then come back with every scripture they can find where someone was called a snake.

Oh, let's get behind the veneer of 'verbal attacks' panacea.
A mature Christian takes no offense of 'verbal attacks'.
You 'whine' too much about 'woe is me'.

 

[popsthebuilder]

To the already saved one.
A UNbeliever sorrow and it does not bring about their repentance for they are a UNbeliever.

Sorrow can indeed bring about the turning from what is wrong even in one who has yet to know GOD. one can hope on a thing they have only heard of yet do not know.



Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

 

[Rosenritter]

This is why I said you pick and choose like GT does.

I take opportunities wherever I find them....(whether you offer them to me or not).

I find them on my own by simply reading your words....like "feigned ignorance" and "I'm so tired of bickering back and forth" while you're doing exactly that.

OK, to clarify then, you understand "obeying the commands of Jesus" as obeying commands that are not given to you? And likewise you understand "obeying the commands of God" as obeying every command that is given to other people? Such as:

Sacrifice your first born son,
Kill a lamb and spread its blood on your doorposts,
Marry a harlot,
Do not touch a dead animal nor partake of raisins or grapes,
Kill the Amalakites,
Go into Jerusalem and find a colt and take it, saying "My Master has needs of it"
etc...

I have trouble seeing how you are not being purposely obtuse for the sake of creating argument. Just because you hate me personally isn't a good reason to adopt any position (no matter how inane) simply for the sake of creating argument.

 

[Rosenritter]

Oh, let's get behind the veneer of 'verbal attacks' panacea.
A mature Christian takes no offense of 'verbal attacks'.
You 'whine' too much about 'woe is me'.

Ideally we neither offend nor take offense, but if we have caused offense we attempt to make things right again. Things break down when one party refuses to participate in attempted reconciliation. So here's a new idea: what about if everyone here makes extra attempt to try to find common ground and be a little extra forgiving? Take less offense and try to avoid being purposely offensive?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Ideally we neither offend nor take offense, but if we have caused offense we attempt to make things right again. Things break down when one party refuses to participate in attempted reconciliation. So here's a new idea: what about if everyone here makes extra attempt to try to find common ground and be a little extra forgiving? Take less offense and try to avoid being purposely offensive?

Jesus is the Truth, and the truth is offensive, and that is why He is called the rock of offense.

I want to be like Him, truthful even/especially if it's offensive.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,“Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”—then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand:Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” - Matthew 15:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:1-14&version=NKJV

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus is the Truth, and the truth is offensive, and that is why He is called the rock of offense.

I want to be like Him, truthful even/especially if it's offensive.

Jas 3:1-2
(1) My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
(2) For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

It is admirable that you want to be like Jesus, but you are not Jesus, and our instructions caution us against causing unnecessary offense. Being offensive does not make your words true, and truth can often be spoken with additional care to avoid causing offense. I am not saying it is an easy task. Love thy enemy is hard to exercise in action.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jas 3:1-2
(1) My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
(2) For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

It is admirable that you want to be like Jesus, but you are not Jesus, and our instructions caution us against causing unnecessary offense. Being offensive does not make your words true, and truth can often be spoken with additional care to avoid causing offense. I am not saying it is an easy task. Love thy enemy is hard to exercise in action.

I agree, but my point is not "I want to be offensive, like Jesus was," my point is "I want to be truthful, like Jesus was, even if what I say is offensive." Being offensive for offensiveness's sake isn't always a good course of action.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus also says to obey. How is it you ignore all the 'obey' scriptures for the 'believe' scriptures?

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

The obedience of faith is obeying the Gospel.....BELIEVING. It's just that simple.

 

[Rosenritter]

gt has it the other way around.

Belief does bring obedience, but it may also be that obedience may bring about belief. Although he is speaking specifically of the law of Moses here, what Paul says may be applicable on a wider scale as well:

Gal 3:23-25
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

At least in this example, it seems that Paul is saying that obedience to law can have the end result of faith in Christ.

 

[lifeisgood]

Ideally we neither offend nor take offense, but if we have caused offense we attempt to make things right again. Things break down when one party refuses to participate in attempted reconciliation. So here's a new idea: what about if everyone here makes extra attempt to try to find common ground and be a little extra forgiving? Take less offense and try to avoid being purposely offensive?

I neither have offended nor have a felt offended by anyone here. Not yet, at least.

There is no reconciliation if the foundation is sand.

Common ground?

You mean let's all kumbaya with the ones that dethrone my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say that my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is not God?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say that my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is the half brother of Lucifer?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say that Christ Jesus was not the one who died on the Cross of Calvary, that He let someone else die in His place, and then simply lied about His death. How about that common ground?

If the foundation is not Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary there is no common ground, period.

 

[lifeisgood]

Belief does bring obedience, but it may also be that obedience may bring about belief. Although he is speaking specifically of the law of Moses here, what Paul says may be applicable on a wider scale as well:

Gal 3:23-25
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

At least in this example, it seems that Paul is saying that obedience to law can have the end result of faith in Christ.

Paul is simply saying that the Law pointed to the Redeemer to come.

 

[glorydaz]

Belief does bring obedience, but it may also be that obedience may bring about belief. Although he is speaking specifically of the law of Moses here, what Paul says may be applicable on a wider scale as well:

Gal 3:23-25
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

At least in this example, it seems that Paul is saying that obedience to law can have the end result of faith in Christ.

No, Paul is not saying obedience to the law results in faith.

The law shows man what sin is and shows him his GUILT....thus his need for Mercy and Grace.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

 

[glorydaz]

Paul is simply saying that the Law pointed to the Redeemer to come.

Yep, his need for a Saviour. :thumb: