The Trinity

The Trinity


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glorydaz

Well-known member
OK, to clarify then, you understand "obeying the commands of Jesus" as obeying commands that are not given to you? And likewise you understand "obeying the commands of God" as obeying every command that is given to other people? Such as:

Sacrifice your first born son,
Kill a lamb and spread its blood on your doorposts,
Marry a harlot,
Do not touch a dead animal nor partake of raisins or grapes,
Kill the Amalakites,
Go into Jerusalem and find a colt and take it, saying "My Master has needs of it"
etc...

I have trouble seeing how you are not being purposely obtuse for the sake of creating argument. Just because you hate me personally isn't a good reason to adopt any position (no matter how inane) simply for the sake of creating argument.

Please don't flatter yourself. It's uncomely. Accusing me of hating you is silly and make you look like a drama queen.

It's another false accusation to say I adopt other positions because I "hate" you. I don't change my positions to suit you or anyone else. So....stop lying about me.

There is a reason believers have been delivered from the law....that we have liberty in Christ Jesus. It wouldn't matter what laws you list out, the same would hold true.

Righteous does not come from obedience to the law of commandments. Period.

The law was not made to made men righteous, to justfy, or to give life. If that was true then men would have reason to boast...like GT does every single day here on TOL.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I neither have offended nor have a felt offended by anyone here. Not yet, at least.

There is no reconciliation if the foundation is sand.

Common ground?

You mean let's all kumbaya with the ones that dethrone my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say that my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is not God?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say that my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is the half brother of Lucifer?

How about kumbaya with the ones who say that Christ Jesus was not the one who died on the Cross of Calvary, that He let someone else die in His place, and then simply lied about His death. How about that common ground?

If the foundation is not Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary there is no common ground, period.

Would you kumbaya with someone that says that Jesus is not the Saviour of the whole world?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Paul is simply saying that the Law pointed to the Redeemer to come.

Those that learned the law of Moses also had the opportunity to learn Christ. The scriptures spoke of him, and the laws themselves pointed to the Creator. Thus, obedience to the law does build faith. Children first learn obedience, then they learn faith. If someone is focused on obedience, by no means tell them to be disobedient. Show faith, preach faith, but understand that that person may need obedience to lead them into deeper faith.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Please don't flatter yourself. It's uncomely. Accusing me of hating you is silly and make you look like a drama queen.

Please refer to me with the male gender, not the female. Rosenritter is a masculine name, my avatar is male, I am married with a wife and child, remember? There's no purpose in you assigning gender confusion other than to be derogatory.

But if your actions are not those of hatred but rather a reflection of love, I would hate to see what your hatred looks like.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Would you kumbaya with someone that says that Jesus is not the Saviour of the whole world?

Jesus being the Savior of the world and saving everyone in it, aren't the same thing. Pretend you dont get it now so you can keep falsely accusing glorydaze or others of saying something they didn't, thats called desperation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Lets give you the benefit of the doubt though and help you with reading comprehension.

Does this clear it up?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Jesus being the Savior of the world and saving everyone in it, aren't the same thing. Pretend you dont get it now so you can keep falsely accusing glorydaze or others of saying something they didn't, thats called desperation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Lets give you the benefit of the doubt though and help you with reading comprehension.

Does this clear it up?

Jesus is the Saviour of the whole world. This is the gospel message, that Jesus died for all, for those that believe and those that have yet to believe, he paid the penalty of the cross to bring this to our attention. John 4:42, 1 Timothy 4:10 1 John 4:14. The message of Jesus was that he was our savior, everyone's savior, regardless of whether they yet understood fully what was going on. When someone enters into a hateful tirade against one of those children that God died for on that cross, telling them they have no saviour, they are preaching against the gospel.

Romans 10:9 KJV
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

My bible says that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9). You and I may both understand Lord Jesus to be the LORD, but the words of scripture don't demand perfect understanding. They require confession and faith. One may err in many things, but the faith in Christ's blood can forgive error.

If G-daz didn't mean to say that another had no savior, she has had (and still has) opportunity to correct herself. You can't make an argument for her good intentions, she clarified saying "You will die in your sins." That isn't her call to make. Jesus is the judge of the quick and the dead, not G-daz.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
If G-daz didn't mean to say that another had no savior, she has had (and still has) opportunity to correct herself. You can't make an argument for her good intentions, she clarified saying "You will die in your sins." That isn't her call to make. Jesus is the judge of the quick and the dead, not G-daz.

Youre the one misrepresenting what she said. I understood what she said perfectly.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Youre the one misrepresenting what she said. I understood what she said perfectly.

Since you apparently speak for Glorydaz, would you then please be willing to make a statement, for the record, that Jesus Christ is the savior of us all, and wishes to gather everyone unto himself in saving faith, and that there is not a single person who ever lived for which He did not die for and for which his blood did not atone?
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Since you apparently speak for Glorydaz, would you then please be willing to make a statement, for the record, that Jesus Christ is the savior of us all, and wishes to gather everyone unto himself in saving faith, and that there is not a single person who ever lived for which He did not die for and for which his blood did not atone?

He is the savior of all who call upon his name.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Those that learned the law of Moses also had the opportunity to learn Christ. The scriptures spoke of him, and the laws themselves pointed to the Creator. Thus, obedience to the law does build faith. Children first learn obedience, then they learn faith. If someone is focused on obedience, by no means tell them to be disobedient. Show faith, preach faith, but understand that that person may need obedience to lead them into deeper faith.

All I know is that the Bible says: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 

God's Truth

New member
Nowhere in either of the verses you quote does Paul say that you must obey to be saved.

He DOES say, however, that they can prove their repentance by their deeds.

That is not the same as being saved by works, nor is he saying that faith without works is dead.



REPENT AND HAVE FAITH. No works mentioned, because they are not required.



REPENT AND TURN TO GOD. No works mentioned, because they are not required.

So yes, it was a different message than what the twelve were teaching.

Paul calls it "my gospel," and not just once... But a couple of times.

I call it my gospel.

This thread goes through this discussion on how and why Paul's message was different than the twelve Apostles' message.
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-does-paul-call-it-my-gospel.2299491/

Read what Paul says:

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Now read what John the baptizer says:

Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Luke 3:8 Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

Look at that, John the baptizer, Peter, and Paul himself, they all taught the exact same thing.
 

JudgeRightly

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I call it my gospel.



Read what Paul says:

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Now read what John the baptizer says:

Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Luke 3:8 Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

Look at that, John the baptizer, Peter, and Paul himself, they all taught the exact same thing.

Are you really that dense!? What they say is NOT THE SAME. What Peter and John say are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Paul says.

This is what Paul says:

Prove you have repented by your deeds after you turn to God. Good deeds are the result of repentance and faith.

This is what Peter and John the Baptist say:

Work for repentance, produce fruit so that you become worthy of repentance, work for your salvation AND Repent so God will wipe away your sins.

He (Paul) says that good works are the result of faith, which is what grants us salvation. Faith, no works, for salvation.

John and Peter say works will result in being saved, but belief is also required on top of that.

.

GT, there's a true story that I've heard about recently (I won't say where from) where a pastor (no, not Pastor Enyart) needed his roof redone, so one of the members of his congregation offered to redo it for free, and so worked on it until it was finished. The next Sunday, the pastor mentioned how the man did the work for free and thanked him... And then said, intended as a joke, something along the lines of, "well, I guess it wasn't really free, because I took him out to lunch and paid for his food, so I guess you could say it was valued at a few cents per hour. Now, everyone laughed, but it was a joke in poor taste. The man did all the work for free, and then was insulted by the pastor saying his work was worth very little.

Another story (not entirely sure if it's true or not, but still has a valuable lesson) is one where a man's son loved to dive into the oceans surrounding the islands they lived on, and he would collect the oysters for their pearls. One day the boy saw one that was really deep, too deep to safely dive for, but seemed extremely valuable, so he dove for it, and managed to obtain it, and tried to swim back to the surface, but the damage had already been done, and the boy died a few days later. Now there was a missionary who came, and the man told him about his son, and the missionary told the man about Jesus, but the man wanted to pay for this salvation he heard about, but couldn't understand why the missionary said it couldn't be paid for with any amount of money. So the months went by, and it came time for the missionary to leave, and as he was about to leave, the man offered the beautiful pearl his son had died for to the missionary, who thought for a moment, and then pulled out his wallet and handed the man a twenty dollar bill (or whatever currency was used). The man, insulted, went into a fit about how the missionary was dishonoring his son by offering to pay for the gift, and the missionary said to him, "so to you yourself insult God by trying to pay Him for your salvation.

GT, the parallel you need to draw in your mind from these stories to the Bible is that working for the gift of salvation is an insult to God, who sent His only Son to die on the cross for us, a gift beyond value, and when you try to work for it, you're offering your measly pieces of wood and hay and stubble as a payment for his priceless gift to us.

GT, the only way to obtain salvation CANNOT be through works, because you cannot pay for the gift of Christ's blood on the cross. It is by grace through faith alone that we obtain salvation. No works required. You insult God when you say "one must work to be saved."
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Please refer to me with the male gender, not the female. Rosenritter is a masculine name, my avatar is male, I am married with a wife and child, remember? There's no purpose in you assigning gender confusion other than to be derogatory.

But if your actions are not those of hatred but rather a reflection of love, I would hate to see what your hatred looks like.

Your avatar looks like a young girl to me and that's the way I've thought of you from the first. Then when you act like a little girl, it's not abnormal to think of you that way.

If you expect to be treated like an adult, act like one.

If you expect me to address you as a man, then I'll need more proof than what you've given thus far. I see no resemblance.
 

JudgeRightly

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I call it my gospel.

Then you are arrogant beyond measure.

Paul called it his gospel because He was inspired by God, under His authority. You on the other hand, do not have that same authority to call it "my gospel," because it was not given solely to you, as it was to Paul, just as he could not call the gospel of the twelve his gospel, because their gospel was given to them by Jesus during His earthly ministry, and not to him. Something else to note is that throughout the Bible, Israel is said to inherit in the future an earthly Kingdom, a new Jerusalem descending from heaven onto the new earth (verses throughout Isaiah), yet Paul says that we (the Body of Christ) have our hope in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:1).

Also, Jesus taught the Apostles the gospel they should preach while He was on the earth, yet Jesus gave Paul a different gospel after He had risen into heaven.

See the connection?
 

JudgeRightly

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Your avatar looks like a young girl to me and that's the way I've thought of you from the first. Then when you act like a little girl, it's not abnormal to think of you that way.

That's a man, a character from an anime (not sure which one though).
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Jesus is the Saviour of the whole world. This is the gospel message, that Jesus died for all, for those that believe and those that have yet to believe, he paid the penalty of the cross to bring this to our attention. John 4:42, 1 Timothy 4:10 1 John 4:14. The message of Jesus was that he was our savior, everyone's savior, regardless of whether they yet understood fully what was going on. When someone enters into a hateful tirade against one of those children that God died for on that cross, telling them they have no saviour, they are preaching against the gospel.

Romans 10:9 KJV
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

My bible says that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9). You and I may both understand Lord Jesus to be the LORD, but the words of scripture don't demand perfect understanding. They require confession and faith. One may err in many things, but the faith in Christ's blood can forgive error.

If G-daz didn't mean to say that another had no savior, she has had (and still has) opportunity to correct herself. You can't make an argument for her good intentions, she clarified saying "You will die in your sins." That isn't her call to make. Jesus is the judge of the quick and the dead, not G-daz.

Don't you dare tell me it's not my call. It is the call of all believers to warn of the wolves that walk among us. Obviously, you don't understand that each must BE RECONCILED to God and there is only ONE WAY that can happen. Knowing WHO the Lord Jesus Christ is....Creator, Redeemer, Saviour, and LORD.

Kingdom Rose is not reconciled to God because she rejects Jesus Christ as Lord God Almighty. Therefore, she has no Saviour. Confessing the Lord Jesus Christ means you acknowledge He is the ONE LORD GOD. The words of the scripture cannot be interpreted by the natural man to say whatever any particular natural man says they are.

How they are interpreted give evidence that a person is or is NOT a believer. If they deny their God and Saviour, they are false prophets....a wolf in sheep's clothing. An enemy of the Cross. If a person claims Jesus is A GOD...they are not saved.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:​
 

Rosenritter

New member
He is the savior of all who call upon his name.

.... yes, he is. It says "specially of those that believe."

1 Timothy 4:9-10 KJV
(9) This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
(10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

But by mentioning those specially, it does emphasize that he is the the Savior of all, not limited to those specially.

This is not saying that all will be saved, but he is a Savior to all. This is the gospel message, no?

Romans 5:8-10 KJV
(8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 

Rosenritter

New member
All I know is that the Bible says: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Without disputing that faith does come by hearing, this wouldn't exclude people who were deaf, and were limited to reading with their eyes? Something can be true without being the one and only acceptable pattern.
 
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