The Trinity

[NWL]

I'm sure you didn't mean "no where in scripture does it say we should worship God." That's a typo, right? Deuteronomy 26:10 is the first instance I found. But I have heard this "worship doesn't mean worship" argument before. It falls short. In similar situations the men and angels refused when someone fell down before them and worshiped them. Jesus did no such thing, where the context would demand it otherwise.

Joh 9:34-38
(34) They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
(35) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
(36) He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
(37) And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
(38) And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Mat 28:9
(9) And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Now compare these:

Act 10:25-26
(25) And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
(26) But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Rev 22:7-9
(7) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
(8) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
(9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now compare back again to Jesus in Revelation. Does he say the same as the angel when John falls before him? Does he say "do it not?" Because you're not supposed to be bowing to the angels either, that's a sign of worship.

Rev 1:17
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Jesus is allowed to be worshiped in the ultimate sense. He is our creator, and there is one creator. He is our lord and master, and we are told that a man cannot have two masters without loving one and hating the other. There is a wealth, an utter treasure chest of evidence from every which angle on this. When Paul quoted scripture, he quoted Old Testament where it said "God" and he would replace "God" with "Jesus". Every knee shall bow, it says. Paul thought they were interchangeable. Maybe we should too.

Sorry, I meant nowhere in scripture does it say to worship Jesus directly in the ultimate sense. You can believe me when I say that scripture states we should worship God.

I understand your position. What you fail to understand though is the means by which we are to worship God the Father. My position, as well as the bibles, is that only God the Father should receive ultimate worship and it is to him that worship ultimate goes to, the Father is the source of all things. Mankind fell into sin through Adam, Jesus Christ paid the ransom for Adams sin and thus we have become recoiled through Christ.

Because of this reconciliation through Jesus Christ we worship the Father through him. We worship God by worshipping through Jesus Christ, the bible is clear on this matter.

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

The reverence shown in the bowing of every knee to Christ does not ultimately go to Jesus BUT to the "glory of God the Father", all worship ultimately is given to the Father.

Hence when we see verses, such as you've shown in revelation, that show John falling at the feet of Jesus in heaven, reverence is not being given to Jesus but to the Father.

You assume that in every instance Jesus is given proskuneó it means worship, this is foolish reasoning and most probably circular on your part. Tell me, in light of scriptures that show other humans receving worship, such as Rev 3:9 and other LXX verses, why is it not possible that Jesus simply received obeisance in some of the verses you mentioned, Mat 28:9, Joh 9:34-38.

 

[NWL]

The name "Jehovah" doesn't occur in the New Testament. It's written in Greek, not Hebrew. The name that he made known was the name "Jesus." When the apostles baptised, presumably obeying the command to "baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" we are told that they baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

God didn't always use the name Jehovah with his saints. He was only the Lord God Almighty to Abraham. He can use the name Jehovah if and when he wills. Now he has made himself known to us by his name Jesus.

Interesting.

Yes the NT does have the name Jehovah in it. It most probably had it in many other places but was removed as history testifies to. Jesus himself read from the OT which contained the use of Gods name. In manuscripts of the NT of Jesus reading those passages of the OT though, we do not find the use of Gods name even though it is widely known that the Jews of the 1CE used LXX containing Gods name.

(Revelation 19:6) "..And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, because the Lord our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king!.."

So when have Jesus saying to the Father in prayer "I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world" are you claiming that Jesus was expressing that the Fathers name is Jesus and not Jehovah?

(John 17:1,6) "..Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you... I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.."

 

[popsthebuilder]

Actually Pops, we do have this:

1) Jesus said there is One God, and you should worship him and him only shall you serve.
2) Jesus, unlike the angels or the apostles, allowed people to worship him.
3) Other beings, throughout the bible, including the apostles and angels, all immediately refused worship

So here's seven passages all from the gospel of Matthew: one where Jesus affirms that worship is reserved only for God, and six where Jesus accepts worship without rebuke or refusal.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

But it sounded like you are saying we should worship Christ, but Jesus was not Christ. I can't be hearing you correctly. Or that we should worship Jesus, but Jesus was not in the form of a man when upon this earth. Or ... I am not actually sure what you are saying. But we do have Jesus, on earth, saying we should only worship God, and then accepting worship while on that same earth. And we do have God, raising Jesus from the dead as verification that this same Jesus spoke with the words of God. Therefore, what Jesus did and said was correct.

Matthew: 4. 1. Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 3. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

(we see here He was lead by the Spirit of GOD, and was tempted by Satan(which is impossible for strength dobtonthe fullness of GOD(satan bows to GOD)) He says Man is to be sustained by the word of GOD(speaking of himself as man))

Matthew: 4. 7. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

(says He isn't to temp GOD)

Address this first verse you took out of context and admit the things I just showed that we might proceed to the next one.

I'm sorry it must be in bursts at this time; I am very busy.
peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry, I meant nowhere in scripture does it say to worship Jesus directly in the ultimate sense. You can believe me when I say that scripture states we should worship God.

I understand your position. What you fail to understand though is the means by which we are to worship God the Father. My position, as well as the bibles, is that only God the Father should receive ultimate worship and it is to him that worship ultimate goes to, the Father is the source of all things. Mankind fell into sin through Adam, Jesus Christ paid the ransom for Adams sin and thus we have become recoiled through Christ.

Because of this reconciliation through Jesus Christ we worship the Father through him. We worship God by worshipping through Jesus Christ, the bible is clear on this matter.

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

The reverence shown in the bowing of every knee to Christ does not ultimately go to Jesus BUT to the "glory of God the Father", all worship ultimately is given to the Father.

Hence when we see verses, such as you've shown in revelation, that show John falling at the feet of Jesus in heaven, reverence is not being given to Jesus but to the Father.

You assume that in every instance Jesus is given proskuneó it means worship, this is foolish reasoning and most probably circular on your part. Tell me, in light of scriptures that show other humans receving worship, such as Rev 3:9 and other LXX verses, why is it not possible that Jesus simply received obeisance in some of the verses you mentioned, Mat 28:9, Joh 9:34-38.

It was not Jesus whom John fell to the ground in front of to worship.

I gave many scriptures that show Jesus is worshiped.

Jesus is worshiped because he is God.

 

[NWL]

The trinity doctrine is false.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Man.

I find that hard to believe. Jesus worships the Father, Jesus when in heaven has a God shown to be the Father (Hebrews 1:1,9), he prays to the father on more than one occasion and states he is going to the father (John 17:1, John 14:28), that he is bound by rules whereas the father is not (Mark 10:40), and that the father knows things he does not (Matt 24:36). Scriptures states that the Father created the world through Jesus Christ and that Jesus is part of creation itself (Hebrews 1:1,2, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:15), therefore Jesus can't be an eternal God or the father that these accounts have them both in.

Jesus is worshiped, as only God should be worshiped.

I'll say the same thing I said to someone else on this thread. Proskuneó, the Greek word typically seen as worship in the NT, does not simply mean worship in the sense of Godly divine worship, proskuneó can also mean to show reverence or obeisance. For example, Rev 3:9 has Jesus saying to faithful Christians that he will gather wicked people to Proskuneó/worship/obeisance them. Since Faithful Christians are said to receive proskuneó does this mean that they too are God by Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 according to your reasoning? Certainly not. There are other example of this found in the LXX.

Therefore the scriptures you cited do not necessary mean that he was worshipped. Take Matt 2:2 for example that you cited, why would astrologers want to worship a baby? Did they think he was God? No, the only information told to them via an angel was that the child Jesus would be King of the Jews, hence the reason why they asked "Where is the one born king of the Jews" (Matt 2:2)Therefore the proskuneó that they wanted to give to the child Jesus was that act of obeisance, not worship. The context to suggest the astrologers wanted to worship Jesus is completely lacking.

If you were to go to all the scriptures that seem to state Jesus receives worship you'll find that it cannot be said with any certainty that Jesus was worshipped in the Godly sense over the understanding of the word obeisance when in comes to the Greek word proskuneó. When we look at the context of the Bible including Phil 2:11, that states, every knee should bend to Jesus to the glory of God the Father, thus, it becomes clear that it's the Father and not Jesus whom receives ultimate worship.

 

[NWL]

It was not Jesus whom John fell to the ground in front of to worship.

I gave many scriptures that show Jesus is worshiped.

Jesus is worshiped because he is God.

I think you may be confused. I was replying to Rosenritter when he cited Rev 1:17 when John fell at the feet of Jesus. I never made the claim that this was an act of worship, that was rosenritters claim, I merely showed that any type of reverence, in this particular verse, or any for that matter, ultimately goes back to the Father and not to Jesus according to Phil 2:11.

As I said to you in the last post proskuneó has more than one meaning therefore the verse you cited to me need to be reviewed and not just understood on face value, remember my reasoning on Rev 3:9?

To make the claim "Jesus is worshiped because he is God" is circular reasoning.

Your circular reasoning: Jesus was worshipped because he was God, Jesus is God because he is worshipped.

 

[God's Truth]

I think you may be confused. I was replying to Rosenritter when he cited Rev 1:17 when John fell at the feet of Jesus. I never made the claim that this was an act of worship, that was rosenritters claim, I merely showed that any type of reverence, in this particular verse, or any for that matter, ultimately goes back to the Father and not to Jesus according to Phil 2:11.

I figured since you were going against Jesus being God, it meant you were a JW, and they believe Jesus was an angel. I thought you were speaking of when John fell at the angels feet in Revelation 19:10.

As I said to you in the last post proskuneó has more than one meaning therefore the verse you cited to me need to be reviewed and not just understood on face value, remember my reasoning on Rev 3:9?

To make the claim "Jesus is worshiped because he is God" is circular reasoning.

Since God only should be worshiped, Jesus being worshiped proves he is God.

Your circular reasoning: Jesus was worshipped because he was God, Jesus is God because he is worshipped.

Jesus only said what the Father said. Jesus only does what the Father does, and when you see Jesus, you can say, "I see the Father".

 

[JudgeRightly]

I addressed something you said.

And I'd like you to address my entire post, not just the portion you want to address, because if you would at the very least read my entire post, you might get the point that I'm trying to make.

So respond to the entire post, or don't respond at all.

Otherwise you'll miss the point I'm trying to make.

 

[God's Truth]

And I'd like you to address my entire post, not just the portion you want to address, because if you would at the very least read my entire post, you might get the point that I'm trying to make.

So respond to the entire post, or don't respond at all.

Otherwise you'll miss the point I'm trying to make.

You have done this before.
You refuse to discuss.
I am going to read and reply to NWL's posts to me.

 

[NWL]

I figured since you were going against Jesus being God, it meant you were a JW, and they believe Jesus was an angel. I thought you were speaking of when John fell at the angels feet in Revelation 19:10.

No worries. You were right however, I am a JW and just to let you know Jehovah's witnesses don't deny Jesus is God, we deny he his God being part of a trinity. It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God.

Since God only should be worshiped, Jesus being worshiped proves he is God.

Yes and no. The bible mentions over and over that God hates idolatry since given worship to an idol is stupid since the idol is not alive and doesn't and can't ever reflect Gods image in the slightest. However, scripture states that Jesus is the "image of God" (Col 1:15) and is a copy/stamp of God very being. Scriptures also states that to get to the father we must firstly go through Jesus Christ.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(Colossians 3:17) Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him [Jesus].

We worship the Father through Jesus, any reverence and worship we give to Jesus goes to the Father since he is the source of all things. This is clearly expressed in Phil 2:9-11.

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

As alluded to earlier Jesus is God image, as said we worship God by worshipping through Jesus. We would be worshipping Jesus if he were to keep glory for himself, but he doesn't, since as Phil 2:11 says its to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus only said what the Father said. Jesus only does what the Father does, and when you see Jesus, you can say, "I see the Father".

Correct, which then means he isn't the Father. If Jesus only said what the father said then he can't be the Father but separate from the Father.

Jesus was a perfect man, without sin and knew the Father prior to coming to earth, he was with him for a countless period of time. Just like a human son might copy and imitate his father Jesus was with his Father and had such a close relationship that he imitated God perfectly, so much so, to see Jesus was to see the Father. I myself have a identical twin brother, we act and behave exactly the same, even our voices are indistinguishable, to see me is to see my twin brother. Likewise Jesus reflects God the Father perfectly, to see him is to see the Father.If however I say to someone "to see me is to see my twin brother", it isn't a claim that I am my twin brother, the same goes for Jesus and his Father.

 

[God's Truth]

I find that hard to believe. Jesus worships the Father, Jesus when in heaven has a God shown to be the Father (Hebrews 1:1,9), he prays to the father on more than one occasion and states he is going to the father (John 17:1, John 14:28),

Isn’t what you said kind of circular too?

Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven because Jesus came as a Man. Who else but the Father in heaven should men pray to?

that he is bound by rules whereas the father is not (Mark 10:40),

and that the father knows things he does not (Matt 24:36).

That is because God the Father really came as a Man and did not pretend to come as a Man. Of course God the Father in heaven knows more than a Man in the flesh.

Scriptures states that the Father created the world through Jesus Christ and that Jesus is part of creation itself (Hebrews 1:1,2, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:15), therefore Jesus can't be an eternal God or the father that these accounts have them both in.

Jesus’ body was created by the Father. God the Father created Himself a body, even before coming to earth. The First and the Last.

 

[NWL]

Isn’t that kind of circular too? Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven because Jesus came as a Man. Who else but the Father in heaven should men pray to?

No its not circular, the bible clearly states that Jesus prayed to the Father for one, no one denies this. However since there is more than one meaning of proskuneó it is circular reasoning to state that the meaning behind the word proskuneó is worship in favour of obeisance because Jesus is God.

Furthermore the apostles asked Jesus how to pray, Jesus gave the model prayer, when doing so he instructed to pray not to himself and the Father, but simply the Father.

(Matthew 6:6,9) "..But when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.. You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.."

Man should only pray to the Father but do so through Jesus christ. Nowhere does it state we must only pray to someone in heaven, therefore you question of "Who else but the Father in heaven should men pray to" fails. If Jesus was both God and man then why wasn't it possible to pray to him on earth??

That is because God the Father really came as a Man and did not pretend to come as a Man. Of course God the Father in heaven knows more than a Man in the flesh.

What scripture states the Father came as a man? To you is Jesus not both fully man and fully God at the same time? If so then why would he not know as much as the Father?

Why does it take a God to remember a date in regards to the time of the end, is Jesus, as a man, not able to remember a single date? Matthew 24:36

Why would the Father in the heavens be able to know more than Jesus in the flesh, where is your reasoning or scriptures that supports such a notion?

Since all authority had been given to Jesus in heaven and earth (Matt 28:18) then why was Jesus still not able to able say who could sit at his right or left but only the Father could? Mark 10:40

Jesus’ body was created by the Father. God the Father created Himself a body, even before coming to earth. The First and the Last.

You're using a play on words in order to support a claim. Yes a body was made for Jesus when coming to earth but Jesus was already alive prior to coming to earth, a fact that we both agree on. There are three scenarios, either Jesus was in heaven without a creation and came to earth in a body that was made for him, this makes Jesus eternal still and not part of creation. Two, Jesus was in heaven, created by God and came to earth in a body made for him, this makes Jesus part of creation. Third, Jesus was not alive prior to coming to earth and was created within Mary and then born, here Jesus is part of creation.

You are either eternal or not eternal, if you aren't eternal then you are by default part of the created order. If Jesus was God eternal, just because his life in heaven was transferred into a human body does not make him part of creation since his life was never created.

Col 1:15 is in regards to Jesus being the first thing made in creation much like Rev 3:14 and Prov 8:22 state.

(Proverbs 8:22) "..Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.."

(Revelation 3:14) “..To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that [Jesus] the Amen says, [who is] the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.."

 

[God's Truth]

No worries. You were right however, I am a JW and just to let you know Jehovah's witnesses don't deny Jesus is God, we deny he his God being part of a trinity. It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God.

Interesting, okay, something new about JW's. However, JW's do believe Jesus was first an angel, correct? So how does an angel become God?

Yes and no. The bible mentions over and over that God hates idolatry since given worship to an idol is stupid since the idol is not alive and doesn't and can't ever reflect Gods image in the slightest. However, scripture states that Jesus is the "image of God" (Col 1:15) and is a copy/stamp of God very being. Scriptures also states that to get to the father we must firstly go through Jesus Christ.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(Colossians 3:17) Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him [Jesus].

We worship the Father through Jesus, any reverence and worship we give to Jesus goes to the Father since he is the source of all things. This is clearly expressed in Phil 2:9-11.

Jesus isn't some invisible person. How do you get that he is God, but then merely someone else just representing God?

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

A mere man cannot become God.

As alluded to earlier Jesus is God image, as said we worship God by worshipping through Jesus. We would be worshipping Jesus if he were to keep glory for himself, but he doesn't, since as Phil 2:11 says its to the glory of God the Father.

Then who is this Jesus?

Correct, which then means he isn't the Father. If Jesus only said what the father said then he can't be the Father but separate from the Father.

That makes no sense.

Who only says and does what another says?
When you see Jesus, you can say you see the Father.

Jesus was a perfect man, without sin and knew the Father prior to coming to earth, he was with him for a countless period of time. Just like a human son might copy and imitate his father Jesus was with his Father and had such a close relationship that he imitated God perfectly, so much so, to see Jesus was to see the Father.

The Bible says there is NO ONE LIKE GOD, and no one beside Him.

I myself have a identical twin brother, we act and behave exactly the same, even our voices are indistinguishable, to see me is to see my twin brother.

Cool...except, when you speak, he is not responsible; and whatever you do, he is not responsible.
...and when someone sees him, one cannot say, "I see you".

Likewise Jesus reflects God the Father perfectly, to see him is to see the Father.If however I say to someone "to see me is to see my twin brother", it isn't a claim that I am my twin brother, the same goes for Jesus and his Father.

Jesus says plainly that when you see him you have seen the Father.

 

[God's Truth]

I'll say the same thing I said to someone else on this thread. Proskuneó, the Greek word typically seen as worship in the NT, does not simply mean worship in the sense of Godly divine worship, proskuneó can also mean to show reverence or obeisance. For example, Rev 3:9 has Jesus saying to faithful Christians that he will gather wicked people to Proskuneó/worship/obeisance them. Since Faithful Christians are said to receive proskuneó does this mean that they too are God by Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 according to your reasoning? Certainly not. There are other example of this found in the LXX.

No way does it make us God; however, you said Jesus is God and is representing God because God the Father’s Spirit is inside of Jesus, correct?
Make up your mind.
Remember, you said Jesus is God.
There is only one God, and He is the Father.
Since Jesus is God, then he must also be the Father.

Therefore the scriptures you cited do not necessary mean that he was worshipped. Take Matt 2:2 for example that you cited, why would astrologers want to worship a baby? Did they think he was God? No, the only information told to them via an angel was that the child Jesus would be King of the Jews, hence the reason why they asked "Where is the one born king of the Jews" (Matt 2:2)Therefore the proskuneó that they wanted to give to the child Jesus was that act of obeisance, not worship. The context to suggest the astrologers wanted to worship Jesus is completely lacking.
If you were to go to all the scriptures that seem to state Jesus receives worship you'll find that it cannot be said with any certainty that Jesus was worshipped in the Godly sense over the understanding of the word obeisance when in comes to the Greek word proskuneó. When we look at the context of the Bible including Phil 2:9, that states, every knee should bend to Jesus for the glory of God the Father, it becomes clear that it's the Father and not Jesus whom receives ultimate worship.

There are prophecies fulfilled in those scriptures, and too much to get into at this time; however, remember that we are talking about what is spiritual, and at no time is a mere man or angel worshiped without rebuke.
Jesus was worshiped without rebuke.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No worries. You were right however, I am a JW and just to let you know Jehovah's witnesses don't deny Jesus is God, we deny he his God being part of a trinity. It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God.



Yes and no. The bible mentions over and over that God hates idolatry since given worship to an idol is stupid since the idol is not alive and doesn't and can't ever reflect Gods image in the slightest. However, scripture states that Jesus is the "image of God" (Col 1:15) and is a copy/stamp of God very being. Scriptures also states that to get to the father we must firstly go through Jesus Christ.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(Colossians 3:17) Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him [Jesus].

We worship the Father through Jesus, any reverence and worship we give to Jesus goes to the Father since he is the source of all things. This is clearly expressed in Phil 2:9-11.

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

As alluded to earlier Jesus is God image, as said we worship God by worshipping through Jesus. We would be worshipping Jesus if he were to keep glory for himself, but he doesn't, since as Phil 2:11 says its to the glory of God the Father.



Correct, which then means he isn't the Father. If Jesus only said what the father said then he can't be the Father but separate from the Father.

Jesus was a perfect man, without sin and knew the Father prior to coming to earth, he was with him for a countless period of time. Just like a human son might copy and imitate his father Jesus was with his Father and had such a close relationship that he imitated God perfectly, so much so, to see Jesus was to see the Father. I myself have a identical twin brother, we act and behave exactly the same, even our voices are indistinguishable, to see me is to see my twin brother. Likewise Jesus reflects God the Father perfectly, to see him is to see the Father.If however I say to someone "to see me is to see my twin brother", it isn't a claim that I am my twin brother, the same goes for Jesus and his Father.

I recommend you listen to this:
http://kgov.com/jehovahs-witnesses-secretly-recorded

 

[NWL]

Interesting, okay, something new about JW's. However, JW's do believe Jesus was first an angel, correct? So how does an angel become God?

We do not believe Jesus was an angel. We believe he was an archangel/archaggelos, which means chief of the Angels or ruler of angels.

Angels is just another term for spirits. In essence anything that resides, or resided, in the heavens is a spirit, Angels, demons, Satan, God and Jesus(See Hebrews 1:14, John 4:24, John 1:14).

You ask "so how does an angel become God?". You clearly do not know that God as it is in English does not mean the same thing as it did to a Hebrew and Greek speaker back in the first century. To a English speaker God means God, an ultimate divine being who deserves worship. However to a ancient Greek and Hebrew speaker God hide a far broader meaning, calling someone a God was NOT limited to the almighty God. This is a bibilcal fact and must not be ignored if you intent to understand scripture correctly. God/thoes could be applied to someone who was mighty, divinely powered or a powerful being.

(2 Corinthians 4:4) "..among whom the God of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.."

(John 10:34) "..Jesus answered them [the Jewish teachers]: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?.."

(Psalm 8:5) "..You made him a little lower than gods ones, And you crowned him with glory and splendor.."

(Psalm 82:1) "..God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges.."

(1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) "..For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father.."

There are various terms in the bible for God, El, theos, theon, ho theos... All these titles in scripture have been applied to both the father and other persons. However, as 1 Cor 8:5,6 shows, there are many false gods, general gods, but only one ture God in the ultimate almighty sense.

Therfore when I say Jesus is God, I do not mean it in the ulmighty sense but rather in a secondary sense much like the scriptures I showed you, such as Psalms 8:5, Psalms 82:1.

Jesus isn't some invisible person. How do you get that he is God, but then merely someone else just representing God?

This has to do with the meaning of God as found in the Bibles entirety.

A mere man cannot become God.

According to the Bible they can! Let me just say, a man cannot become almighty God no, but they can be called Gods, Jesus himself called the Jewish leaders who were divinely appointed gods, John 10:34. God himself said to Moses that he would make him a God to Pharaoh (John 10:34) . Thus when I call Jesus God or a God i'm not referring to him to the One God as mentioned in 1 Cor 8:6, who is the Father.

When you see Jesus, you can say you see the Father.

Jesus cannot be a reflection of himself. If Jesus is a reflection of the Father then he cannot be the Father. Hebrews 1:3 states that Jesus is a reproduction of Gods being (according to the word charaktér). Thus if you were see Jesus and witness how he acted and dealt with things it was as if you saw the Father himself hence Jesus said to see him is to see the Father. Jesus and his father are separate persons.

The Bible says there is NO ONE LIKE GOD, and no one beside Him.

Find the verse which state such things, when you do so you'll see that the context surrounding those verses is always about false gods of surrounding nations with God challenging those gods regards his sovereignty, thus the understanding regarding such expressions can only be stretched as far as that context allows. Moreover, there is no God like Jehovah. Even Jesus as Gods very image, he is completely subordinate to him, hence the reason why Jesus hands all things over to God in the future whilst in Heaven.

(1 Cor 15:24)"..Then the end will come, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.."

Cool...except, when you speak, he is not responsible; and whatever you do, he is not responsible.
...and when someone sees him, one cannot say, "I see you".

That's the thing, countless of times I've had people come up to me and say "I saw you on so on so day" or "I saw you last week driving you van", when people say this they actually didn't see me but my brother. But because we are mirrors of each other people DO say they saw me even though they haven't. The same goes for Jesus, Jesus is the fathers image, the exact representation of him, therefore Jesus can say to see me is to see the Father without it having to mean he is the Father. You interpret it differently I get that, but that doesn't mean it can't be understood in the sense I'm claiming, since it can.

Responsibility doesn't come into play and is not relevant to the discussion. Also, it makes absolutely no sense why Jesus didn't simply come claiming to be the Father, why make things difficult and claim he's the son, when for thousands of years he's been saying he's the Father. Why not just state outspokenly, I'm the Father. Just like the trinitarians you don't take scripture simply for what it says.

 

[glorydaz]

No worries. You were right however, I am a JW and just to let you know Jehovah's witnesses don't deny Jesus is God, we deny he his God being part of a trinity. It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God.

:Letsargu:

 

[God's Truth]

No its not circular, the bible clearly states that Jesus prayed to the Father for one, no one denies this. However since there is more than one meaning of proskuneó it is circular reasoning to state that the meaning behind the word proskuneó is worship in favour of obeisance because Jesus is God.

No, what I mean is, you say Jesus is not God the Father because He prayed to God the Father. That is circular.
If you will not accept that reasoning, then neither can you use it.

Furthermore the apostles asked Jesus how to pray, Jesus gave the model prayer, when doing so he instructed to pray not to himself and the Father, but simply the Father.

Again, God the Father came as a Man called Jesus. Who else but God the Father should Jesus teach us to pray to?
Your beliefs are circular and you cannot use them.

(Matthew 6:6,9) "..But when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.. You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.."

Man should only pray to the Father but do so through Jesus christ. Nowhere does it state we must only pray to someone in heaven, therefore you question of "Who else but the Father in heaven should men pray to" fails. If Jesus was both God and man then why wasn't it possible to pray to him on earth??

Have you forgotten that you said Jesus is God?

Jesus is in the flesh explaining to man what we must do.

What scripture states the Father came as a man? To you is Jesus not both fully man and fully God at the same time? If so then why would he not know as much as the Father?

God really came as a Man.

Why does it take a God to remember a date in regards to the time of the end, is Jesus, as a man, not able to remember a single date? Matthew 24:36

Remember a date? God came as a Son and was taught.

Why would the Father in the heavens be able to know more than Jesus in the flesh, where is your reasoning or scriptures that supports such a notion?

God the Father came as a Man.

Have you forgotten that you said Jesus is God?

Are you considering that there is only one God and He is the Father?

Since all authority had been given to Jesus in heaven and earth (Matt 28:18) then why was Jesus still not able to able say who could sit at his right or left but only the Father could? Mark 10:40

Jesus said that while he was still a Man on earth.

You're using a play on words in order to support a claim. Yes a body was made for Jesus when coming to earth but Jesus was already alive prior to coming to earth, a fact that we both agree on. There are three scenarios, either Jesus was in heaven without a creation and came to earth in a body that was made for him, this makes Jesus eternal still and not part of creation. Two, Jesus was in heaven, created by God and came to earth in a body made for him, this makes Jesus part of creation. Third, Jesus was not alive prior to coming to earth and was created within Mary and then born, here Jesus is part of creation.

You are either eternal or not eternal, if you aren't eternal then you are by default part of the created order. If Jesus was God eternal, just because his life in heaven was transferred into a human body does not make him part of creation since his life was never created.

You are saying a lot of stuff and are all over the place.

Jesus is God the Father with a body.
Jesus is Spirit, and He is the Spirit of God.
Jesus had a body created by God the Father, before coming to earth, and after coming to earth.

 

[glorydaz]

We do not believe Jesus was an angel. We believe he was an archangel/archaggelos, which means chief of the Angels or ruler of angels.

:Letsargu:

 

[glorydaz]

Have you forgotten that you said Jesus is God?

He said "Jesus is a God".

You need to learn to read more carefully.