The Trinity

[NWL]

Jesus is God the Father who came in the flesh as a Son of Man.

As for glorydaze and my argument, I am right and she is wrong, because you did say Jesus is God.

Actually I said Jesus is a God, this is what I said to you "It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God."

But tbh it doesn't really matter.

 

[Rosenritter]

I would answer that some of the context most certainly does demand beyond mere homage.

When Jesus personally rebuked the storm with a word (compare with Psalm 107:28-29, Psalm 89:8-9) they worshiped him, and when he had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven they also worshiped him (compare with Psalm 24). When he lets John fall before his feet in Revelation He identifies himself as none other than the first and the last, a title reserved exclusively for the LORD of the Old Testament (compare Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, and 48:12).

It is possible that some of those instances those that worshiped may have fallen short of recognizing that they were in front of their very God and Creator. It is highly unlikely that was the case for all of them. However, the point was that had worship not been appropriate, Jesus would have rebuked them. Peter did. The angel of revelation did. Jesus, however, did not.

Sorry, I meant nowhere in scripture does it say to worship Jesus directly in the ultimate sense. You can believe me when I say that scripture states we should worship God.

I understand your position. What you fail to understand though is the means by which we are to worship God the Father. My position, as well as the bibles, is that only God the Father should receive ultimate worship and it is to him that worship ultimate goes to, the Father is the source of all things. Mankind fell into sin through Adam, Jesus Christ paid the ransom for Adams sin and thus we have become recoiled through Christ.

Because of this reconciliation through Jesus Christ we worship the Father through him. We worship God by worshipping through Jesus Christ, the bible is clear on this matter.

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

The reverence shown in the bowing of every knee to Christ does not ultimately go to Jesus BUT to the "glory of God the Father", all worship ultimately is given to the Father.

Hence when we see verses, such as you've shown in revelation, that show John falling at the feet of Jesus in heaven, reverence is not being given to Jesus but to the Father.

You assume that in every instance Jesus is given proskuneó it means worship, this is foolish reasoning and most probably circular on your part. Tell me, in light of scriptures that show other humans receving worship, such as Rev 3:9 and other LXX verses, why is it not possible that Jesus simply received obeisance in some of the verses you mentioned, Mat 28:9, Joh 9:34-38.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus is not God the Father who is come in the flesh by His own admission;

John 17:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

One down. Thanks BR. :thumb:

 

[God's Truth]

LIAR. You have never given scripture, because there are none that say what you claim.

It is you.

I don't lie.

I give scripture for all my beliefs.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually I said Jesus is a God, this is what I said to you "It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God."

But tbh it doesn't really matter.

Thank you for setting her straight. :thumb:

 

[Rosenritter]

I had a series of discussions with members from the local Jehovah's Witness church that said something similar. The claim was that the Bible originally had the name Jehovah in the New Testament, which is why their special bible used it as well. But when I asked to see his Bible that was brought this time for me, and I looked where he showed me, the notes they had inside admitted that there was not one single known manuscript in existence to substantiate such a claim.

Or in other words, they simply added to the scripture what they wanted without any evidence. But because "it must have been so" as a reason.

Interesting.

Yes the NT does have the name Jehovah in it. It most probably had it in many other places but was removed as history testifies to. Jesus himself read from the OT which contained the use of Gods name. In manuscripts of the NT of Jesus reading those passages of the OT though, we do not find the use of Gods name even though it is widely known that the Jews of the 1CE used LXX containing Gods name.

(Revelation 19:6) "..And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, because the Lord our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king!.."

So when have Jesus saying to the Father in prayer "I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world" are you claiming that Jesus was expressing that the Fathers name is Jesus and not Jehovah?

(John 17:1,6) "..Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you... I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.."

 

[JudgeRightly]

Actually I said Jesus is a God, this is what I said to you "It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God."

But tbh it doesn't really matter.

Where do you get the idea that Jesus is "a god?"

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is not God the Father who is come in the flesh by His own admission;

John 17:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus went back to what he had with the Father before coming to earth, and that is God the Father with a body.

That scripture you gave proves it.

For what did Jesus go back to heaven and receive? He received the same Spiritual body that he had before coming to earth.

Jesus gave up his Spiritual body that he had in heaven and took on the body of flesh.

 

[Rosenritter]

You should read a little further on the verse that you are commenting on. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God.... has a continuation. The rest of it goes "as ye tempted him in Massah." Here's the source Jesus quoted.

Deu 6:16
(16) Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Saying that Jesus couldn't be God because Satan tried unsuccessfully to tempt him is nonsense. So would saying that Jesus can't be God because God can't be tempted. Here's how it reads to me: Jesus plainly tells Satan, to stop trying to tempt him. Don't you know that it is written, "Thou shalt not tempt the LORD your God?"

Thou shalt not tempt the LORD your God, JESUS.

Matthew: 4. 1. Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 3. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

(we see here He was lead by the Spirit of GOD, and was tempted by Satan(which is impossible for strength dobtonthe fullness of GOD(satan bows to GOD)) He says Man is to be sustained by the word of GOD(speaking of himself as man))

Matthew: 4. 7. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

(says He isn't to temp GOD)

Address this first verse you took out of context and admit the things I just showed that we might proceed to the next one.

I'm sorry it must be in bursts at this time; I am very busy.
peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

 

[glorydaz]

It is you.

I don't lie.

I give scripture for all my beliefs.

Give them, then. You can't because there are none to support your claims.

You've just been proven wrong on one by BR, and you were proven wrong about what NWL said about Jesus being "a God".

You've yet to give a scripture to support your claim that Jesus is Israel.

You can run but you can't hid.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus went back to what he had with the Father before coming to earth, and that is God the Father with a body.

That scripture you gave proves it.

For what did Jesus go back to heaven and receive? He received the same Spiritual body that he had before coming to earth.

Jesus gave up his Spiritual body that he had in heaven and took on the body of flesh.

So Jesus is currently sitting/standing at His own right hand?

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!” - Acts 7:55-56 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts7:55-56&version=NKJV

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. - Romans 8:34 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:34&version=NKJV

which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, - Ephesians 1:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:20&version=NKJV

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, - Hebrews 1:3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:3&version=NKJV

Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, - Hebrews 8:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews8:1&version=NKJV

Your position has been refuted by scripture. Give it up.

 

[God's Truth]

No worries. You were right however, I am a JW and just to let you know Jehovah's witnesses don't deny Jesus is God, we deny he his God being part of a trinity. It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God.

Now will glorydaze and you get it straight?

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus went back to what he had with the Father before coming to earth, and that is God the Father with a body.

That scripture you gave proves it.

For what did Jesus go back to heaven and receive? He received the same Spiritual body that he had before coming to earth.

Jesus gave up his Spiritual body that he had in heaven and took on the body of flesh.

It proves there are two entities, not one;

2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. oly:

 

[Rosenritter]

The Witnesses that spoke to me said that Jesus was the same as Michael the archangel. At least they did at first. Has this changed within the last few years? They haven't tried to talk to me since...

No worries. You were right however, I am a JW and just to let you know Jehovah's witnesses don't deny Jesus is God, we deny he his God being part of a trinity. It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God.



Yes and no. The bible mentions over and over that God hates idolatry since given worship to an idol is stupid since the idol is not alive and doesn't and can't ever reflect Gods image in the slightest. However, scripture states that Jesus is the "image of God" (Col 1:15) and is a copy/stamp of God very being. Scriptures also states that to get to the father we must firstly go through Jesus Christ.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(Colossians 3:17) Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him [Jesus].

We worship the Father through Jesus, any reverence and worship we give to Jesus goes to the Father since he is the source of all things. This is clearly expressed in Phil 2:9-11.

(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."

As alluded to earlier Jesus is God image, as said we worship God by worshipping through Jesus. We would be worshipping Jesus if he were to keep glory for himself, but he doesn't, since as Phil 2:11 says its to the glory of God the Father.



Correct, which then means he isn't the Father. If Jesus only said what the father said then he can't be the Father but separate from the Father.

Jesus was a perfect man, without sin and knew the Father prior to coming to earth, he was with him for a countless period of time. Just like a human son might copy and imitate his father Jesus was with his Father and had such a close relationship that he imitated God perfectly, so much so, to see Jesus was to see the Father. I myself have a identical twin brother, we act and behave exactly the same, even our voices are indistinguishable, to see me is to see my twin brother. Likewise Jesus reflects God the Father perfectly, to see him is to see the Father.If however I say to someone "to see me is to see my twin brother", it isn't a claim that I am my twin brother, the same goes for Jesus and his Father.

 

[God's Truth]

Give them, then. You can't because there are none to support your claims.

You've just been proven wrong on one by BR, and you were proven wrong about what NWL said about Jesus being "a God".

You've yet to give a scripture to support your claim that Jesus is Israel.

You can run but you can't hid.

Pathetic

 

[Bright Raven]

Actually I said Jesus is a God, this is what I said to you "It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God."

But tbh it doesn't really matter.

Then you are a polytheist?

 

[Bright Raven]

Pathetic

Answer her question!

 

[God's Truth]

So Jesus is currently sitting at His own right hand?

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. - Romans 8:34 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:34&version=NKJV

Your position has been refuted by scripture. Give it up.

I prove all my beliefs with scripture.

There are three, and the three are one and the same.

That right hand is Jesus the Father's right hand.

 

[God's Truth]

Answer her question!

Try to keep up.

I already answered. Go scroll up.

You should be so demanding. You might not come back for days and then come back with copy and paste and a link from a Calvinist site, and you are not even Calvinist.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I prove all my beliefs with scripture.

There are three, and the three are one and the same.

That right hand is Jesus the Father's right hand.

I updated my post.