The Trinity

The Trinity


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God's Truth

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And the angel answered and said to her, “ The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke1:35&version=NKJV

Did the Holy Spirit also indwell Mary? NO! OF COURSE NOT!

So why do you assume that the Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus is any different?
I usually do not read long posts, as this one, but someone else quoted only this part of what you said.

What do you mean did the Holy Spirit also indwell Mary? You said no.

Of course the Holy Spirit indwelled Mary. She was carrying the Holy Spirit, Jesus the Christ!

Jesus even baptized John the baptizer, when he was still in his mother's womb! John the baptizer and his mother Elizabeth were filled with the Holy Spirit---baptized from JESUS WHILE JESUS was still in his mother's womb!

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
 

JudgeRightly

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I usually do not read long posts, as this one, but someone else quoted only this part of what you said.

What do you mean did the Holy Spirit also indwell Mary? You said no.

Of course the Holy Spirit indwelled Mary. She was carrying the Holy Spirit, Jesus the Christ!

Jesus even baptized John the baptizer, when he was still in his mother's womb! John the baptizer and his mother Elizabeth were filled with the Holy Spirit---baptized from JESUS WHILE JESUS was still in his mother's womb!

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
As usual, you ignore context. Go read the full post, and perhaps you'll understand my post.
 

Nihilo

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Actually Pops, we do have this:

1) Jesus said there is One God, and you should worship him and him only shall you serve.
2) Jesus, unlike the angels or the apostles, allowed people to worship him.
3) Other beings, throughout the bible, including the apostles and angels, all immediately refused worship

So here's seven passages all from the gospel of Matthew: one where Jesus affirms that worship is reserved only for God, and six where Jesus accepts worship without rebuke or refusal.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

But it sounded like you are saying we should worship Christ, but Jesus was not Christ. I can't be hearing you correctly. Or that we should worship Jesus, but Jesus was not in the form of a man when upon this earth. Or ... I am not actually sure what you are saying. But we do have Jesus, on earth, saying we should only worship God, and then accepting worship while on that same earth. And we do have God, raising Jesus from the dead as verification that this same Jesus spoke with the words of God. Therefore, what Jesus did and said was correct.
Sameness, and distinction; both of these are littered through the whole Bible, and particularly in the New Testament. And it is sameness and distinction, that typifies the Church's Trinity doctrine. IMO.

Good post. :thumb:
 

JudgeRightly

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You just ignored content.

Address what I said.

At least I quoted you and addressed what you said.

What is wrong with You? Address what I said, or admit you are a false teacher.
If you want to address me, and for me to address you, address everything that I said. There's a reason I wrote it in one post, so reply to my one post.
 

JudgeRightly

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You just ignored content.

Address what I said.

At least I quoted you and addressed what you said.

What is wrong with You? Address what I said, or admit you are a false teacher.
I'm not going to make my points multiple times just because you don't want to read a long post.
 

NWL

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Actually Pops, we do have this:

1) Jesus said there is One God, and you should worship him and him only shall you serve.
2) Jesus, unlike the angels or the apostles, allowed people to worship him.
3) Other beings, throughout the bible, including the apostles and angels, all immediately refused worship

So here's seven passages all from the gospel of Matthew: one where Jesus affirms that worship is reserved only for God, and six where Jesus accepts worship without rebuke or refusal.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

But it sounded like you are saying we should worship Christ, but Jesus was not Christ. I can't be hearing you correctly. Or that we should worship Jesus, but Jesus was not in the form of a man when upon this earth. Or ... I am not actually sure what you are saying. But we do have Jesus, on earth, saying we should only worship God, and then accepting worship while on that same earth. And we do have God, raising Jesus from the dead as verification that this same Jesus spoke with the words of God. Therefore, what Jesus did and said was correct.


Nowhere in scripture does it state we should worship Jesus. As already pointed out by you Jesus made it clear whom we should worship in scriptures such as Matt 4:10. Jesus quoted Deuteronomy that stated worship and sacred service belong to Jehovah the Father alone. This directly contradicts your claim that since Jesus receives proskuneó it makes him God since Jesus clearly stated we should worship Jehovah and not himself in reply to Satan.

Proskuneó, the Greek word typically seen as worship in the NT, does not simply mean worship in the sense of Godly divine worship, proskuneó can also mean to show reverence. For example Rev 3:9 has Jesus saying to faithful Christians that he will gather wicked people to Proskuneó/worship them. Since Faithful Christians are said to receive worship does this mean that they too are God by Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 according to your reasoning? Certainly not.

(Rev 3:9) "..Behold, I give those from the synagogue of Satan--those declaring themselves to be Jews, and are not, but they lie--behold, I will cause them that they will come and will worship before your feet, and they shall know that I have loved you.."

Likewise just because some translations have the scriptures state Jesus received Proskuneó it shouldn't be assumed that he is God anymore than faitful christian according to Rev 3:9. As already stated, Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 cleary shows who should be worshipped, Jehovah the Father.

Jesus words found in John 4:24 further show that he understood and preached that it is only the Father who should receive ultimate worship.

(John 4:23, 24)"..Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth..."

The verses you mentioned that seem to show Jesus receiving worship need to be considered on verse by verse basis to see if the correct understanding of proskuneó is being used. If you were to actually take time to do this, comparing context of verses such as Phil 2:9-11, Luke 4:8 and Deut 13:4 you'd find context does not allow Jesus to receive worship in the ultimate sense.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Nowhere in scripture does it state we should worship God. As already pointed out by you Jesus made it clear whom we should worship in scriptures such as Matt 4:10. Jesus quoted Deuteronomy that stated worship and sacred service belong to Jehovah the Father alone. This directly contradicts your claim that since Jesus receives proskuneó it makes him God since Jesus clearly stated we should worship Jehovah and not himself in reply to Satan.

Proskuneó, the Greek word typically seen as worship in the NT, does not simply mean worship in the sense of Godly divine worship, proskuneó can also mean to show reverence. For example Rev 3:9 has Jesus saying to faithful Christians that he will gather wicked people to Proskuneó/worship them. Since Faithful Christians are said to receive worship does this mean that they too are God by Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 according to your reasoning? Certainly not.

(Rev 3:9) "..Behold, I give those from the synagogue of Satan--those declaring themselves to be Jews, and are not, but they lie--behold, I will cause them that they will come and will worship before your feet, and they shall know that I have loved you.."

Likewise just because some translations have the scriptures state Jesus received Proskuneó it shouldn't be assumed that he is God anymore than faitful christian according to Rev 3:9. As already stated, Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 cleary shows who should be worshipped, Jehovah the Father.

Jesus words found in John 4:24 further show that he understood and preached that it is only the Father who should receive ultimate worship.

(John 4:23, 24)"..Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth..."

The verses you mentioned that seem to show Jesus receiving worship need to be considered on verse by verse basis to see if the correct understanding of proskuneó is being used. If you were to actually take time to do this, comparing context of verses such as Phil 2:9-11, Luke 4:8 and Deut 13:4 you'd find context does not allow Jesus to receive worship in the ultimate sense.
Jesus' entire ministry was egocentric. No one else's ministry in the entire Bible was like it.

You should go read:
kgov.com/deity
 

Rosenritter

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Yes, I agree. Jesus did raise himself, he had life in himself as the Father has life in himself. I was stating it like that for the benefit of those who might still be questioning who Jesus was. Moses died for striking the rock, the priests died for touching the ark, so if Jesus wasn't who he said he was, would he have been raised in glory?

Joh 5:26
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


John 10:18 KJV - God raised Himself

Act 2:23-24
(23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(24) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Act 2:32
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
 

NWL

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Jesus' entire ministry was egocentric. No one else's ministry in the entire Bible was like it.

I'm aware Jesus ministry was egocentric, but I do't see how that changes anything. One of the reasons why Jesus came to earth was to make his father name known, namely Jehovah. Jesus, to the typical trinitarian is Jehovah, thus Jesus came to make himself known to the nations but according to the father will, did he not? Therefore it's puzzling as to why Jesus, who apparently is of God and part of the trinity, didn't make it known to the people that he deserves worship along with the Father. Instead we have scriptures such a 1 Cor 8:6 that say there is one God, who is the Father, with Jesus making multiple references that we are to only worship the father.

You should go read:
kgov.com/deity

I will when I have time, thanks.
 

God's Truth

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Yes, I agree. Jesus did raise himself, he had life in himself as the Father has life in himself. I was stating it like that for the benefit of those who might still be questioning who Jesus was. Moses died for striking the rock, the priests died for touching the ark, so if Jesus wasn't who he said he was, would he have been raised in glory?

Joh 5:26
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;




Act 2:23-24
(23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(24) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Act 2:32
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jesus is God the Father and that is why some scriptures say the Father raised Jesus and why some scriptures say Jesus raised himself.
 

Rosenritter

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I'm sure you didn't mean "no where in scripture does it say we should worship God." That's a typo, right? Deuteronomy 26:10 is the first instance I found. But I have heard this "worship doesn't mean worship" argument before. It falls short. In similar situations the men and angels refused when someone fell down before them and worshiped them. Jesus did no such thing, where the context would demand it otherwise.

Joh 9:34-38
(34) They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
(35) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
(36) He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
(37) And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
(38) And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Mat 28:9
(9) And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Now compare these:

Act 10:25-26
(25) And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
(26) But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Rev 22:7-9
(7) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
(8) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
(9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now compare back again to Jesus in Revelation. Does he say the same as the angel when John falls before him? Does he say "do it not?" Because you're not supposed to be bowing to the angels either, that's a sign of worship.

Rev 1:17
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Jesus is allowed to be worshiped in the ultimate sense. He is our creator, and there is one creator. He is our lord and master, and we are told that a man cannot have two masters without loving one and hating the other. There is a wealth, an utter treasure chest of evidence from every which angle on this. When Paul quoted scripture, he quoted Old Testament where it said "God" and he would replace "God" with "Jesus". Every knee shall bow, it says. Paul thought they were interchangeable. Maybe we should too.


Nowhere in scripture does it state we should worship God. As already pointed out by you Jesus made it clear whom we should worship in scriptures such as Matt 4:10. Jesus quoted Deuteronomy that stated worship and sacred service belong to Jehovah the Father alone. This directly contradicts your claim that since Jesus receives proskuneó it makes him God since Jesus clearly stated we should worship Jehovah and not himself in reply to Satan.

Proskuneó, the Greek word typically seen as worship in the NT, does not simply mean worship in the sense of Godly divine worship, proskuneó can also mean to show reverence. For example Rev 3:9 has Jesus saying to faithful Christians that he will gather wicked people to Proskuneó/worship them. Since Faithful Christians are said to receive worship does this mean that they too are God by Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 according to your reasoning? Certainly not.

(Rev 3:9) "..Behold, I give those from the synagogue of Satan--those declaring themselves to be Jews, and are not, but they lie--behold, I will cause them that they will come and will worship before your feet, and they shall know that I have loved you.."

Likewise just because some translations have the scriptures state Jesus received Proskuneó it shouldn't be assumed that he is God anymore than faitful christian according to Rev 3:9. As already stated, Jesus words found at Matt 4:10 cleary shows who should be worshipped, Jehovah the Father.

Jesus words found in John 4:24 further show that he understood and preached that it is only the Father who should receive ultimate worship.

(John 4:23, 24)"..Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth..."

The verses you mentioned that seem to show Jesus receiving worship need to be considered on verse by verse basis to see if the correct understanding of proskuneó is being used. If you were to actually take time to do this, comparing context of verses such as Phil 2:9-11, Luke 4:8 and Deut 13:4 you'd find context does not allow Jesus to receive worship in the ultimate sense.
 

God's Truth

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I'm aware Jesus ministry was egocentric, but I do't see how that changes anything. One of the reasons why Jesus came to earth was to make his father name known, namely Jehovah. Jesus, to the typical trinitarian is Jehovah, thus Jesus came to make himself known to the nations but according to the father will, did he not? Therefore it's puzzling as to why Jesus, who apparently is of God and part of the trinity, didn't make it known to the people that he deserves worship along with the Father. Instead we have scriptures such a 1 Cor 8:6 that say there is one God, who is the Father, with Jesus making multiple references that we are to only worship the father.

I will when I have time, thanks.

The trinity doctrine is false.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a Man.

Jesus is worshiped, as only God should be worshiped.

Jesus is worshiped

Matthew 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 2:8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

Matthew 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

Matthew 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Hebrews 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Luke 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan.

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."
 

Rosenritter

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The name "Jehovah" doesn't occur in the New Testament. It's written in Greek, not Hebrew. The name that he made known was the name "Jesus." When the apostles baptised, presumably obeying the command to "baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" we are told that they baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

God didn't always use the name Jehovah with his saints. He was only the Lord God Almighty to Abraham. He can use the name Jehovah if and when he wills. Now he has made himself known to us by his name Jesus.

I'm aware Jesus ministry was egocentric, but I do't see how that changes anything. One of the reasons why Jesus came to earth was to make his father name known, namely Jehovah. Jesus, to the typical trinitarian is Jehovah, thus Jesus came to make himself known to the nations but according to the father will, did he not? Therefore it's puzzling as to why Jesus, who apparently is of God and part of the trinity, didn't make it known to the people that he deserves worship along with the Father. Instead we have scriptures such a 1 Cor 8:6 that say there is one God, who is the Father, with Jesus making multiple references that we are to only worship the father.



I will when I have time, thanks.
 
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