The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

OK, here's something that might be a Trinity question. Maybe it's not. From the Nicene creed, specifically on the boldfaced text below:

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father … .”

Why would it say "begotten of his Father before all worlds?" I did a quick search and found a Catholic forum questioning the phrase, but not much from anyone else explaining it. Does anyone understand what that phrase is intended to mean? Or for bonus credit, what scriptural support (if any) that it has?

Just to put this in perspective, it seems to me that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit about two thousand years ago, and that it was an event that happened within space-time, such as "this day." That does have scriptural support:

Luke 1:35 KJV
(35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Acts 13:33 KJV
(33) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


Now I can think of a passage that speaks of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), but rather than this speaking of the specific time, it means that the world was built upon the sacrifice of Christ from the beginning, it was always part of the plan, even when God set Adam and Eve in the garden.

So here's my question: what does the Nicene creed actually mean with that phrase? Is it meant in the sense of Revelation 13:8, or does it intend something different? Does it claim any scriptural reference there?

 

[JudgeRightly]

OK, here's something that might be a Trinity question. Maybe it's not. From the Nicene creed, specifically on the boldfaced text below:

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father … .”

Why would it say "begotten of his Father before all worlds?" I did a quick search and found a Catholic forum questioning the phrase, but not much from anyone else explaining it. Does anyone understand what that phrase is intended to mean? Or for bonus credit, what scriptural support (if any) that it has?

Just to put this in perspective, it seems to me that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit about two thousand years ago, and that it was an event that happened within space-time, such as "this day." That does have scriptural support:

Luke 1:35 KJV
(35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Acts 13:33 KJV
(33) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


Now I can think of a passage that speaks of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), but rather than this speaking of the specific time, it means that the world was built upon the sacrifice of Christ from the beginning, it was always part of the plan, even when God set Adam and Eve in the garden.

So here's my question: what does the Nicene creed actually mean with that phrase? Is it meant in the sense of Revelation 13:8, or does it intend something different? Does it claim any scriptural reference there?

It simply means that Jesus was the Son of God from before creation.

 

[Rosenritter]

Can you show me where "eternally generated Son of God" occurs in the Bible? Or at least the next best thing that is said to imply this?

True . .




Jesus was not yet born of woman in the fullness of time.



As to His divinity, yes. Jesus the Christ was both fully God, as well as fully Human. But this does not mean the man, Jesus, incarnated before the fullness of time.

The problem is, you seem to fail to distinguish the eternally generated Son of God, who assumed flesh like His brethren, and incarnated as the Son of Man, born as a child, in time. Which leads to erroneous Christology (E.g. Docetism and/or Arianism). That is why careful teaching of the Trinity takes wisdom.

Get the Trinity wrong, then Jesus the Christ is not taught properly, and when the hypostatic Union of Jesus the Christ as being one in personhood, both human and divine, is not properly understood or misrepresented, the Gospel message is skewed, and all kinds of strange gospels emerge.

 

[Rosenritter]

If so, then I can't participate with that creed in good conscience (due to conflict with Luke 1:35). Do you have a source on that?

It simply means that Jesus was the Son of God from before creation.

Psalms 2:7 KJV
(7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

 

[KingdomRose]

Jesus remains within the category of Messiah, Son of God, a category which John expressly imposes on his entire gospel (John 20:31). Fundamental to John's whole Christological outlook are two primary facts: (1) Jesus is to be believed in as "Messiah, Son of God," while (2) the Father's unique status is preserved as "the only true God" (John 17:3) and "the one who alone is God." (John 5:44)

 

[JudgeRightly]

If so, then I can't participate with that creed in good conscience. Do you have a source on that?

I imagine that the phrase "before all worlds" comes from a figure of speech used throughout the Bible, "from before the foundations of the earth" or similar.

Remember though, that the Nicene creed is not scripture, it's a man-made creed based on scripture. Not following it isn't going to send you to Hell.

 

[KingdomRose]

OK, here's something that might be a Trinity question. Maybe it's not. From the Nicene creed, specifically on the boldfaced text below:

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father … .”

Why would it say "begotten of his Father before all worlds?" I did a quick search and found a Catholic forum questioning the phrase, but not much from anyone else explaining it. Does anyone understand what that phrase is intended to mean? Or for bonus credit, what scriptural support (if any) that it has?

Just to put this in perspective, it seems to me that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit about two thousand years ago, and that it was an event that happened within space-time, such as "this day." That does have scriptural support:

Luke 1:35 KJV
(35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Acts 13:33 KJV
(33) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


Now I can think of a passage that speaks of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), but rather than this speaking of the specific time, it means that the world was built upon the sacrifice of Christ from the beginning, it was always part of the plan, even when God set Adam and Eve in the garden.

So here's my question: what does the Nicene creed actually mean with that phrase? Is it meant in the sense of Revelation 13:8, or does it intend something different? Does it claim any scriptural reference there?

The Nicene Creed means that Christ was caused to exist by the Father before anything else was created. Jesus was brought into being---"begotten"---by God. It contradicts itself by saying that Christ was "not made," because that is what "begotten" means.

That Christ was created by God has scriptural support. Revelation 3:14 calls Christ "the beginning of the creation by God." Interestingly, in verse 12 just preceding that, Jesus calls the Father "my God" four times. Colossians 1:15 says that he is "the first-born of all creation." He is the first person or thing that God created, the first-born of all created things.

He did not come into existence when he was born on the earth. He was transferred from heaven to the earth to live for 33 years as a human.

No, the world was not created with the sacrifice of Christ in view. If Adam had chosen to remain loyal and not rebel, Christ never would have had to come to the earth and die for mankind. He was God's plan for the redemption of mankind AFTER Adam and Eve disobeyed, and right before the world alienated from God was founded, which began when A&E had children. That is what "the world" means when it says "from the foundation of the world." It doesn't mean the planet.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The Nicene Creed means that Christ was caused to exist by the Father before anything else was created. Jesus was brought into being---"begotten"---by God. It contradicts itself by saying that Christ was "not made," because that is what "begotten" means.

That Christ was created by God has scriptural support. Revelation 3:14 calls Christ "the beginning of the creation by God." Interestingly, in verse 12 just preceding that, Jesus calls the Father "my God" four times. Colossians 1:15 says that he is "the first-born of all creation." He is the first person or thing that God created, the first-born of all created things.

He did not come into existence when he was born on the earth. He was transferred from heaven to the earth to live for 33 years as a human.

No, the world was not created with the sacrifice of Christ in view. If Adam had chosen to remain loyal and not rebel, Christ never would have had to come to the earth and die for mankind. He was God's plan for the redemption of mankind AFTER Adam and Eve disobeyed, and right before the world alienated from God was founded, which began when A&E had children. That is what "the world" means when it says "from the foundation of the world." It doesn't mean the planet.

No... saved this for you...

Introduction​

There is a single Anti-Christ that will come one day, but we know that the Devil is the picture and leader of the Anti-Christ Spirit. There are only two leading "S(s)pirits" in this world. There is the Spirit of God and there is the spirit of Satan (Adversary to God)... because no man can serve two masters (Mt. 6:24).

I'm not going to call any individual out..., but I am going to drop some names of people I would like to hear me out on this matter. I count you allies in this battle and some of you already knew this, but some of you might be shocked that I am acknowledging you as my "ally" in this matter.​

Before we expose the Anti-Christ Spirit within some, I want to address the matter to my fellow believers in God's absolute TriUne expression. If we are divided on this matter, we will have no grounds to fully unite in a way that will bring this Anti-Christ Spirit to its knees.

Reformed Address​

Spoiler

Calvinists that I count equipped for this battle... . Address and gratitude that you both exalt the TriUne mechanism that God has used to unite, Lovingly with us, through. I can't deny that I am a "Trinitarian", but I am Jewish by blood and I believe it's time you drop the accusations of "Modalism" towards those of us who are Monotheist Trinitarians. You are both takers of an undiscussed oath to be like WOLVES towards WOLVES that would harm God's sheep, by being "Calvinists". Please hear me out.

We have to be able to express our Monotheism in clarity towards the Anti-Christ spirit, because it is a vile spirit within sincere people that seeks to divide all who understand that Jesus is God and He is truly ONE (Dt. 6:4 and Rv. 4:2). So I will do you a respectful favor and say thank you for reinforcing the TriUne Mechanism of God relating Lovingly towards us. I would like to recommend some doctrinal updates.

Solutions, Not Problems​

"Subsistence" is the first place to start. The word Subsistence means... the action or fact of maintaining or supporting oneself at a minimum level. I would recommend we replace the word Subsistence with "Expression". "Expression" means... the process of making known one's thoughts or feelings.. and... the look on someone's face that conveys a particular emotion. This bolsters the fact that the Spirit (Father), Face of God (The Logos Son) and the Presence of God within us (Holy Spirit) is... not are... is... all God, our Monotheistic ONE.

The second thing I want to recommend is that we take a note from the Biblical response to Jesus words and His Deity. In (Mt. 28:19) we have a very Trinitarian baptism that identifies the Three that Testify (1 Jn. 5:7). But as early as Acts, we see the post Jesus Christ response as this… (Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:5). The apostles of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ weren’t “Doctrinally" afraid to Name the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT... "Jesus Christ". We see this again in (Galatians 4:6; Romans 8:9 and Philippians 1:19) in reference to the Holy Spirit. To call the Father Jesus and still acknowledge the Trinity is a giant theological leap! However, the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, or book of REVELATION starts with JESUS CHRST speaking through the Apostle John, from the Island of Patmos. It has such high points as Revelation 4:2f where we only see ONE sitting in the throne and of-coarse the giant reveal that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega in Revelation 22:13.

I have gone to great lengths to express this and if you need more biblical evidence, I have so much evidence, that it is literally incontrovertible. I would even be willing to have an official debate over this matter moderated by the mods with you if you don’t believe me. I wouldn’t be utilizing any other reference than the good old 66. It is so full of support for my assertions, that I would feel guilty entering a spectated debate on the matter. It would make me look like a theological ace and I have absolute faith that the Bible itself would declare me the victor. To be precise, (John 5:39) is a death nail. If that isn’t enough, I am now theologically capable on explaining the connection of (Gn. 1:3, 26; John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, 13, 14; 14:7f, 9; 1 John 1:1, 2; Gal. 4:6, Dt. 6:4) … and many other verses that are implicit on the matter in a way that is irrefutable, and still supportive of the “Trinity”.

Let us look at this which has gone ignored, but has been available for much time now.

Spoiler

This happened on another thread... but... it fits.
Let's focus on your statement highlighted in red that is backed by scripture... (The person I was addressing acknowledged that the Son is Equal to the Father). And.. yet... by my personal understanding... The Spirit is beyond time and the Logos is within time. But... that's a long and uphill debate, though scripture makes it pretty downhill.

Philippians 2:5-11 ...Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,​

Here, we see Jesus is indeed Equal to God. Why did God "send" Jesus? (Is. 43:11) I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior... This is the Mighty Father speaking through His prophet, Isaiah. (Luke 2:21) And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.... conceived by Whome? (Matthew 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: ... she was found with child of the Holy Spirit... why did God "send" Jesus? (Luke 2:11) For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. ... So... Jesus is born of the Holy Spirit, through Mary.. conceived within womb by the Holy Spirit... YHWH clearly says HE ALONE is Savior and Jesus is angelically declared the Savior, that John 3:16f affirms.

7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.​

Here we can see that Jesus was not only the very LOGOS or FORM and PRESENCE of God, but He, by His own AUTHORITY, chose to liken himself unto a lowly bond servant of GOD, "His Father". Something is off here... Jesus would then be the image of God! (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Here we have two serious theological issues... first... God said; (Is. 46:9) Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, This would be a problem, because the only time we see God, it is considered the "GLORY" of God the Father. It would mean that Jesus is the literal, Physical Manifestation of God... and... continuitivly... we have 1 Tim. 3:16... The second hurdle is the implications of the title "FIRST BORN". WHO but GOD can take GOD's PLACE if (Isaiah 46:9) is true?

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.​

Why would He do this? (Hebrews 2:14 in light of 1 Tim. 3:16) Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, What ended up empowering the devil? (1 Cor. 15:54f,56f) 56 The sting (that sounds like a serpent bite) of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. So Jesus had authority over God's Law? Jesus is our victory, thus, He is our Savior? (Is. 43:11)

That's odd! That would make Jesus (Isaiah 9:6)!

(Php. 2:10f) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Does that verse look familiar?

(Isaiah 45:23f) I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. So... God swears by Himself? This sounds a lot like (Mt. 22:44) ... But more interesting... Do you see that the Name of Jesus is now in the place of YHWH? It's like the Apostle cut out YHWH and pasted Jesus' name right in there?!?!

What's so important about all of these verses?

The Hebrew Scroll of Isaiah that was found in the Dead Sea scrolls, is the oldest of all known scrolls in Hebrew that is completely intact. It surpasses even the SEPTUAGINT in Authority, because it is in original HEBREW! Sooooo..... Where do we go from here?

Let's see that one more time!

23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24.He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So if I Bow to Jesus and confess HIM as my MASTER or LORD... (Mt. 6:24 + Isaiah 45:5) ... I'm doing so TO The GLORY of the FATHER?
Glory of the Father? Where have I seen that before?

Wait!!! That would mean that JESUS is the very GLORY and PHYSICAL manifestation of (Av-'ad or The Mighty Father!!!!) (Is. 9:6).
Notice how this all dropped into place and I didn't have to change one word of scripture to do so? I wonder why that is?

Nuff Said on my proposed solutions to sharpening our scriptural thrust against the Spirit of the Anti-Christ.

This has been hard for me because I dislike pointing out Spiritual Death​

I haven't even begun to express the myrid of scriptures and writeups I've been blessed to write up on the fact that saying Jesus Christ is saying the name of God. But this is where I have been headed. So let's get to the matter.

(1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:16)

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.​

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.​

If you realize that Jesus Messiah (Christ) is the FULL name of God and the apostle Paul made a mult-dimensional statement about this that gives the equation to utter "church" unity and the understanding of the utter Monotheistic Unity of God in (1 Co. 1:13)

You will fully understand how demonic the Anti-Christ Spirit is that led me to generate this OP. I will omit the name of the person that posted this, but please tell me if you can see the absolute hate that is being generated towards our Lord (John 20:28), God (Is. 45:5) and Savior (Is. 43:11)... Jesus Christ (Messiah).

That is both too sad and too hilarious; you are exhorting others to be united with you against Ruach Elohim, against Ruach Meshiah, against Ruach Melki Tzedek, and against his Father and our Father, and it is all so that you can have your flesh "God-Man" born of a woman. :chuckle:

 

[Nang]

Can you show me where "eternally generated Son of God" occurs in the Bible? Or at least the next best thing that is said to imply this?

Would you deny the truth of the Triune God because it is not explicitly explained in one quotable passage, nor spelled out in our theological jargon in Holy Scripture . . or do you learn and conclude Truth according to the whole?

All this term signifies is the eternal ousia of the Son of God.

By decree, before the creation of time, the Incarnation was determined, which necessitated God sacrificing in order to redeem a remnant of humanity. John 3:16; Romans 5:8; Isaiah 9:6.

Jesus the Child born in the fullness of time, under the Law, from the womb of woman . . manifested and perfectly performed that eternal decree, purpose, and promise.

His human name was called Jesus, but He declared Himself "IAM" because He is also the promised Christ and Messiah, who came as the "Lord from heaven" (I Cor. 15:47) in like flesh as His brethren (Hebrews 2:6-3:6)

The doctrine is fully revealed in the book of Hebrews.

 

[God's Truth]

I get the impression that attempting to engage in reasonable conversation with you as an impossibility.

Likewise.

 

[God's Truth]

Yeah, GT doesn't like reasonable conversation, as she's avoided answering my very simple and direct question about Christians being under law or grace.

There is no such thing as being a Christian under the old law.

Christians are under the new law.

She also thinks (if I recall correctly) that the Bride of Christ (Israel) is the same entity as the Body of Christ (Christians).

We are all the same to God when we are saved.

There is no such thing as saved Jews who are not in the body of Christ.

 

[JudgeRightly]

There is no such thing as being a Christian under the old law.

1) Prior to Paul's conversion, there was no such thing as a "Christian."

2) Where did I ever make the distinction between "old" and "new" law in my question?

My question was "Are Christians under law or under grace."

Christians are under the new law.

So Christians are under law? Thanks for FINALLY answering my question.

You disagree with Paul.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans6:14&version=NKJV

We are all the same to God when we are saved.

Why do you think we disagree on this?

We do not.

There is no such thing as saved Jews who are not in the body of Christ.

You are correct. But I'm talking about a nation compared to an organism, not organism and organism.

The Nation of Israel is not the organism which is the Body of Christ.

One can be part of the Nation of Israel AND be of the Body of Christ. However, I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about two groups of people.

 

[God's Truth]

Prior to Paul's conversion, there was no such thing as a "Christian."

They might not have been called ‘Christian’ but we know that they were believers in Christ.

2) Where did I ever make the distinction between "old" and "new" law in my question?

I spoke about both.

My question was "Are Christians under law or under grace."

There is no such thing as anyone being under the old law anymore.
The believers of Christ are under grace. It is the new law that requires faith, it is the law of the Spirit, the law of Christ.

So Christians are under law? Thanks for FINALLY answering my question.

You disagree with Paul.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

You are the one who goes against Paul.

True believers uphold the law. See Romans 3:31.

We are not without a law.

We have the law written on our hearts and minds, see Hebrews 10:16.

There was a change to that old law, see Hebrews 7:12.

That changed old law is our new law.

All those who are saved have to obey the law, the new law, and the new law is in the New Covenant.

The new law is the law of the Spirit; see Romans 8:2, the perfect law James 1:25.

It is the law that gives freedom, see James 2:12.

It is the LAW that requires faith, see Romans 3:27.

It is the law of Christ; see 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2.

Why do you think we disagree on this?

We do not.

You are correct. But I'm talking about a nation compared to an organism, not organism and organism.

The Nation of Israel is not the organism which is the Body of Christ.

One can be part of the Nation of Israel AND be of the Body of Christ. However, I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about two groups of people.

There is no more separation of nations. There is only separation called saved, and unsaved.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yeah, GT doesn't like reasonable conversation, as she's avoided answering my very simple and direct question about Christians being under law or grace. She also thinks (if I recall correctly) that the Bride of Christ (Israel) is the same entity as the Body of Christ (Christians).

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 3:28-29 KJV
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

2 Corinthians 11:2 KJV
(2) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

I can see why one would see the body of saints as the bride of Christ. Physical blood lines don't matter in this regard. We are told it matters whether we actually belong to Christ, in our heart, and if so, then we are heirs according to Abraham.

 

[Rosenritter]

I was checking because my local Lutheran church recites that creed. I don't want to repeat something simply out of ritual.

I imagine that the phrase "before all worlds" comes from a figure of speech used throughout the Bible, "from before the foundations of the earth" or similar.

Remember though, that the Nicene creed is not scripture, it's a man-made creed based on scripture. Not following it isn't going to send you to Hell.

 

[Rosenritter]

... it sounds like you are saying that God offered Adam and Eve the choice between life and death, and was fully prepared if they chose obedience and life, but was totally unprepared if they chose the other option. That he didn't have that planned for?

The Nicene Creed means that Christ was caused to exist by the Father before anything else was created. Jesus was brought into being---"begotten"---by God. It contradicts itself by saying that Christ was "not made," because that is what "begotten" means.

That Christ was created by God has scriptural support. Revelation 3:14 calls Christ "the beginning of the creation by God." Interestingly, in verse 12 just preceding that, Jesus calls the Father "my God" four times. Colossians 1:15 says that he is "the first-born of all creation." He is the first person or thing that God created, the first-born of all created things.

He did not come into existence when he was born on the earth. He was transferred from heaven to the earth to live for 33 years as a human.

No, the world was not created with the sacrifice of Christ in view. If Adam had chosen to remain loyal and not rebel, Christ never would have had to come to the earth and die for mankind. He was God's plan for the redemption of mankind AFTER Adam and Eve disobeyed, and right before the world alienated from God was founded, which began when A&E had children. That is what "the world" means when it says "from the foundation of the world." It doesn't mean the planet.

 

[Rosenritter]

I really don't care about any Trinity definition. If scripture says so that's good enough for me, but like any engraving of wood or metal, a doctrine or a creed has no power to harm me. My question was about if there was anyplace in scripture that says that Jesus was "eternally generated." It sounds like you are telling me there isn't. Which is OK, my question allowed for that. I was asking for the closest to that, if a direct quotable passage wasn't available.

Would you deny the truth of the Triune God because it is not explicitly explained in one quotable passage, nor spelled out in our theological jargon in Holy Scripture . . or do you learn and conclude Truth according to the whole?

All this term signifies is the eternal ousia of the Son of God.

By decree, before the creation of time, the Incarnation was determined, which necessitated God sacrificing in order to redeem a remnant of humanity. John 3:16; Romans 5:8; Isaiah 9:6.

Jesus the Child born in the fullness of time, under the Law, from the womb of woman . . manifested and perfectly performed that eternal decree, purpose, and promise.

His human name was called Jesus, but He declared Himself "IAM" because He is also the promised Christ and Messiah, who came as the "Lord from heaven" (I Cor. 15:47) in like flesh as His brethren (Hebrews 2:6-3:6)

The doctrine is fully revealed in the book of Hebrews.

 

[freelight]

Eternal Generation of the Son.................

Eternal Generation of the Son.................

I really don't care about any Trinity definition. If scripture says so that's good enough for me, but like any engraving of wood or metal, a doctrine or a creed has no power to harm me. My question was about if there was anyplace in scripture that says that Jesus was "eternally generated." It sounds like you are telling me there isn't. Which is OK, my question allowed for that. I was asking for the closest to that, if a direct quotable passage wasn't available.

Trinity? one view is its just a 'concept' - see here.

Ahh,....the "eternally begotten Son",....a term invented and reinforced in creed - the 'Son' needed to be 'eternally begotten' in some metaphysical sense to account for his state of being the 'Eternal Son' in the Godhead,...so the term was a creative innovation to secure the position of "orthodoxy",...well of course.

There are so many different Christologies one can explore or choose to believe in, pretty cool eh?

 

[Bright Raven]

Trinity? one view is its just a 'concept' - see here.

Ahh,....the "eternally begotten Son",....a term invented and reinforced in creed - the 'Son' needed to be 'eternally begotten' in some metaphysical sense to account for his state of being the 'Eternal Son' in the Godhead,...so the term was a creative innovation to secure the position of "orthodoxy",...well of course.

There are so many different Christologies one can explore or choose to believe in, pretty cool eh?

1 John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

 

[keypurr]

1 John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

What do you consider the beginning?


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