No, it does not show us that they are one in the same. It shows that they work together to attain the same end. I believe that is what the scriptures teach. They co-labor to attain the truths we see in scripture.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
No, it does not show us that they are one in the same. It shows that they work together to attain the same end. I believe that is what the scriptures teach. They co-labor to attain the truths we see in scripture.
glorydaz
Well-known member
NO
No
You are taking that out of context as usual. I know you won't really read this text, much less understand it, but you cannot just yank verses from their context and expect them to say what you want...instead of what they actually say. This text is comparing the law which could not give life with the Gospel which does. Do you see the "ministration of death" and the "ministration of the spirit" there? :idea:
2 Cor. 3:6-8 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2 Cor. 3:14-17 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Now, the Lord spoken of is Christ, and He is that spirit (in essence), as God is, John 4:24, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Comparing the law (written in stone) with the Gospel where the Holy Spirit regenerates, sanctifies, and gives life.
Good grief. The godhead is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are inseparable....always together...never apart. This is obviously beyond your pay grade. You cannot read "Holy Spirit" into every spirit you see.
Back to the schoolmaster you go. :wave:
Rosenritter
New member
Pops, 100% red and 100% apple does not equal 200%.
Likewise, 100% apple and 100% orange is only contradictory if they are both fruits.
I don't much care for the wording she used but 100% God and 100% man need not contradict, if one is being and the other is form.
Likewise, 100% apple and 100% orange is only contradictory if they are both fruits.
I don't much care for the wording she used but 100% God and 100% man need not contradict, if one is being and the other is form.
Lon
Well-known member
John 5:23 Psalm 2:12 Philippians 2:10,11 John 20:28 Seems clear to me. I realize some of them may be saved by God, but If they are new creations, with Him living inside of them Revelation 3:20. To miss the equated elevation of the Son, is a grievous error. I don't know if damning, but it isn't where they should be. I've met too many JW's living a life in the flesh and trying to work their way to heaven instead of understanding what it means to be a new creation. 1 Corinthians 15:50 2 Corinthians 5:17
Rosenritter
New member
Bright Raven, the official word on the Trinity doctrine is that it cannot be understood.
"If you deny the trinity you lose your soul, if your try to explain the trinity you shall lose your mind" - Saint Augustine.
Now I don't think Augustine has the right to speak for God and Christ or to slay anyone's soul over whether they confirm or deny his doctrine, but I do know that our scripture does say that "What is not of faith is sin" and that if one cannot honestly say that they understand something, they should by no means affirm it.
How many times does it say in the Bible "you must believe in a Trinity?" Now how many times does it say "There is one God?" Yet your explanations sound a lot more like you are saying THREE Gods, three individuals. That would be tri-theistic.
I was going to post the CARM definition article for Trinity here, but it did such a good job of elusiveness without saying anything at all that there was not much to grab hold of one way or the other. Except I did see one part that made me smile:
https://carm.org/does-the-trinity-really-teach-there-are-three-gods
The reason I'm laughing here is because I've seen other Trinity crusaders blast the hated "Modalists" who "incorrectly" use analogies like "solid, liquid, and gas" in relation to God. I guess anything is OK to say as long as you use the word "Trinity."
https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Trinity.html
So here's what I have observed in my odd some years watching this subject: as long as you say the word "TRINITY" you're accepted by one side, even if what you actually say is stupid or contradictor. And those that aren't in the TRINITY team will call you TRINITY if you say "Jesus is our Lord and God" and attack you as well, but team TRINITY will call you a heretic for not wearing the team jersey. Do you think this is what Jesus wants?
If you need a Trinity model for you to be able to have faith in Jesus as Lord and God who will raise you from the dead, then use that Trinity model. But Jesus never said to condemn anyone for not believing a model that he never saw fit to give in the first place. If someone else needs a different model to understand Jesus as their Lord God and Savior, then they likewise should use that model, and far be it from us to become stumbling blocks for them. We need to focus on what Jesus said was actually important instead, not keep making up new rules and doctrines like the Pharisees did in Christ's day.
"If you deny the trinity you lose your soul, if your try to explain the trinity you shall lose your mind" - Saint Augustine.
Now I don't think Augustine has the right to speak for God and Christ or to slay anyone's soul over whether they confirm or deny his doctrine, but I do know that our scripture does say that "What is not of faith is sin" and that if one cannot honestly say that they understand something, they should by no means affirm it.
How many times does it say in the Bible "you must believe in a Trinity?" Now how many times does it say "There is one God?" Yet your explanations sound a lot more like you are saying THREE Gods, three individuals. That would be tri-theistic.
I was going to post the CARM definition article for Trinity here, but it did such a good job of elusiveness without saying anything at all that there was not much to grab hold of one way or the other. Except I did see one part that made me smile:
https://carm.org/does-the-trinity-really-teach-there-are-three-gods
The reason I'm laughing here is because I've seen other Trinity crusaders blast the hated "Modalists" who "incorrectly" use analogies like "solid, liquid, and gas" in relation to God. I guess anything is OK to say as long as you use the word "Trinity."
https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Trinity.html
So here's what I have observed in my odd some years watching this subject: as long as you say the word "TRINITY" you're accepted by one side, even if what you actually say is stupid or contradictor. And those that aren't in the TRINITY team will call you TRINITY if you say "Jesus is our Lord and God" and attack you as well, but team TRINITY will call you a heretic for not wearing the team jersey. Do you think this is what Jesus wants?
If you need a Trinity model for you to be able to have faith in Jesus as Lord and God who will raise you from the dead, then use that Trinity model. But Jesus never said to condemn anyone for not believing a model that he never saw fit to give in the first place. If someone else needs a different model to understand Jesus as their Lord God and Savior, then they likewise should use that model, and far be it from us to become stumbling blocks for them. We need to focus on what Jesus said was actually important instead, not keep making up new rules and doctrines like the Pharisees did in Christ's day.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
One God and His Messiah-Son.....
One God and His Messiah-Son.....
:thumb:
Some of us find the traditional biblical Unitarian model fitting (among other Christologies that do not subscribe to the dogmatic claims of a traditional-orthodox definition of the 'Trinity'), - if it was good enough for Jesus and his original apostles staying within essential Judaism, then such a pure monotheism is staying within the pure spring of that dispensation. I'm all for 'progressive revelation' but some fundamentals hold, and that is pure monotheism, where only 'God' is 'God'....and 'men' in service to The ONE are but anointed prophets, kings, priests and messiah of the One and Only True DEITY. There is no mystery in a Unitarian Christology which a Trinitarian imposes,...and 'unnecesarily' as a good many Unitarians would maintain.
One God and His Messiah-Son.....
:thumb:
Some of us find the traditional biblical Unitarian model fitting (among other Christologies that do not subscribe to the dogmatic claims of a traditional-orthodox definition of the 'Trinity'), - if it was good enough for Jesus and his original apostles staying within essential Judaism, then such a pure monotheism is staying within the pure spring of that dispensation. I'm all for 'progressive revelation' but some fundamentals hold, and that is pure monotheism, where only 'God' is 'God'....and 'men' in service to The ONE are but anointed prophets, kings, priests and messiah of the One and Only True DEITY. There is no mystery in a Unitarian Christology which a Trinitarian imposes,...and 'unnecesarily' as a good many Unitarians would maintain.
glorydaz
Well-known member
God didn't need to do anything. But, out of HIs great love for us, He did become flesh, suffered and died so that we could have life through His resurrection from the dead. It was a Gift to mankind. Something man could not achieve for himself.
Jesus was born of woman, but "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost". Thus...God and man.
Matt. 1:21-23 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, 100% God, and %100 man does not make 200% God or man.
Jesus was a human being in all the same ways we are. He was made of flesh and blood.
He was born, grew older, and died.
He wept, He prayed to God, He was tempted as we are. He was man.
Jesus was God from the beginning....was with God and was God.
He created all things...He was before all things...by Him all things consist.
He came out from God, came down from heaven, and returned to His former Glory after He fulfilled His mission on earth. He forgave sins, He knew the hearts of men while here in the flesh. He fed the 5000 with a few loaves and fishes. He walked on water and turned water into wine. He was God.
marhig
Well-known member
Jesus is not God Almighty, he said that without the father he could do nothing, and that the father is greater than he. It's the father who is God Almighty, the God and head of Christ, it's the father who exalted Christ Jesus to the highest in heaven after him, and Christ Jesus is under subjection to the father, who is his God, and he says this himself. it's the father who is above all, in all and through all but everything is now done through our Lord Jesus Christ, who fought Satan on his own ground and won!No, 100% God, and %100 man does not make 200% God or man.
Jesus was a human being in all the same ways we are. He was made of flesh and blood.
He was born, grew older, and died.
He wept, He prayed to God, He was tempted as we are. He was man.
Jesus was God from the beginning....was with God and was God.
He created all things...He was before all things...by Him all things consist.
He came out from God, came down from heaven, and returned to His former Glory after He fulfilled His mission on earth. He forgave sins, He knew the hearts of men while here in the flesh. He fed the 5000 with a few loaves and fishes. He walked on water and turned water into wine. He was God.
marhig
Well-known member
So how are we saved?
marhig
Well-known member
The knowledge of Divinity in its fullness is both a gift and a blessing. There are those that profess Father, Son and Holy Ghost because that is what they have been taught by men. Then there are those that have been brought to the knowledge of the Triune Elohim because only they can and will worship in spirit and in truth.
marhig
Well-known member
Show me where it says that in the Bible, that we are to worship the Triune Elohim in Spirit and an truth. Or that if we don't, we won't be saved? Because God wouldn't leave something so crucial for salvation out of the scriptures!
This is what I've read!
John 3
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
I'll tell you something else Jesus does say in the Bible, that we are to live by the will of God and obey him, something that you call wicked and evil. Yet this is to worship God in Spirit and in truth! As this is exactly how Jesus bore witness to the truth, he lived not by his own will, but by the will of the father and he obeyed him! And those who are of the truth hear his voice and follow him and do the same!
NWL
Active member
Errr we were kind of talking about Psalms 82:1 here, why are you now trying to act like your claim that the NWT was incorrect in Psalms 82:1 was in reference to John 1:1, you're either plain stupid or deceitful.
How is John 1:1 adulterated in John 1:1 in the NWT? DO you even know, or do you simply regurgitate the same lame arguments that you google. Going into John 1:1, both the translation of God and a god in John 1:1 are grammatically correct, this is a undeniable fact that scholars themselves cannot deny. What it boils down to is context.
Again your problems lies in translation, just because a translation reads God in John 1:1b is not proof that it is the correct translation, I can show you plenty of other translations that have John 1:1b saying the word was a god, godlike or divine, just because those translators translated it in such a way is hardly proof it's correct, we must study the reasons behind why they decided to translated in such manner.
So for you to say you were saved because in your bible John 1:1b say "God" which proved to you that we were wrong is plain dumb, since you're putting complete faith not into the Bible, but, the translator who decided to translated theos as God in John 1:1b.
Tell me since you obviously know, for what contextual and grammatical reasons did we translate thoes in John 1:1b as "a god" and for what reasons is "the word was God" a better translation both/either contextually or grammatically according to the original languages?
NWL
Active member
You have zero understanding of translation.
Deut 6:4, does not contain the word Lord, the word lord was inserted into English translations of the OT in place of the tetragramton, the name Jehovah.
šə-ma‘ yiś-rā-’êl; Yah-weh ’ĕ-lō-hê-nū Yah-weh ’e-ḥāḏ
שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד
Hear O Israel YHWH our God YHWH [is] one
No mention of the term lord there. So the shema does NOT say the Lord our God IS ONE LORD but rather "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah". Again, most translations today remove the name YHWH and replace it with LORD, hence your confusion.
Yes they do show the same thing, that the FATHER created all things THROUGH Jesus and all the things that the Father created through Jesus he made for Jesus. Do you agree with this?
(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "God... Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means his son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
NWL
Active member
No JW tries to work there way to heaven, we all understand that the gift of life is a free gift (Romans 6:23). What you do find however is that throughout the bible it teaches that we must obey God in order to receive his blessings. It makes no sense to be a Christian, namely a follower of christ, and not actually follow him and somehow still be a follower of Christ. TO be a follower of christ we must imitate and listen to the things he taught and instructed. This theme of obedience is found throughout the bible and is an undeniable fact.
(Hebrews 5:9) "..And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."
(Matthew 28:19, 20) "..Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.."
(Luke 6:46) “..Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?.."
(Matthew 7:21) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.
Obedience it required for salvation, fact! Just like a free prize draw has terms and conditions Gods free gift has terms and conditions. A free prize draw is still a free gift regardless of the terms and conditions, likewise Gods free gift is still a free gift despite of the terms and conditions.
NWL
Active member
Just to let you know I haven't taken John 17:3 out of context at all, if you wish to accuse me of something please demonstrate how I have done it rather than simply claiming it. My point is that when Jesus said the Father is the ONLY true God that he meant the Father is the ONLY true God, how this is taking the verse out of context I don't know.
Jesus statement wasn't him saying that there is only One true God as in the trinity, its who Jesus called the only true God. There is a category: The Only True God
Who did Jesus put in the category of being "the ONLY true God" according to John 17:3?
What does John 17:5 have to do with anything? It certainly doesn't negate any of my reasoning, Jesus asked to be glorified in heaven with the glory he had alongside the Father prior to coming to earth, how does this prove that Jesus is God or disprove anything I said?
I believe Jesus existed alongside God in heaven and had his own glory separate from the Father. Remember JW's believe that the bible teaches that Jesus was the Father first creation (Col 1:15), therefore we have no issue with the fact that Jesus existed and asked to have the glory that he had prior to coming to earth.
marhig
Well-known member
Many speak about John 1:1 and Jesus being God and then miss out all these!
John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
2 Thessalonians 2
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given*us*everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,*Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.(Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?(Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)
Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but thy will.(Luke 22:42 KJV)
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46 KJV)
Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh
John continues:
Life eternal is this to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV)
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19 KJV)
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me. (John 8:18 KJV).
Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.(John 20:17 KJV)
I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.(John 14:28 KJV)
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.(John 5-30)
Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God(Mark 10:17-18 KJV)
And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)
But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).
For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (rev 12)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.(Hebrews 10)
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh,that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Ephesians 1
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him
Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.(Hebrews 1:9)
Revelation 3
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)
popsthebuilder
New member
Are you aware that eternal has no start or finish? No beginning no end.
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popsthebuilder
New member
A being is a thing with form or a thing formed.
God is all encompassing, man is not.
GOD is eternal, man is not.
Three persons isn't three different beings or forms, it's three people, and as such the logical conclusion is 200%spirit +100% man. Put them together as if one in three and get a being that is 300%
Ibis illogical, and your attempted explaining away only works to confuse and contradict.
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