rep thread

[chrysostom]

why is the family so important?

it is sacred

sacred?

joined together by God

I just love it when you quote the bible, can you cite the passage?

yes, it is Matthew 19:6 kjv

that is pretty good for a catholic

thank you, thank you very much

so how does God join them together?

with the child

would that make them all one flesh?

just like a trinity

in Their Image?

exactly

 

[IMJerusha]

We just covered that. History. It's her method.

Not here in this thread. Let me qualify that by stating not up to the point where you and I started posting to each other.

I like that.

“Well alright, alright!” (I love Matthew McConnaughey!....well, not his criminal record...)

They mostly are though and they, along with the Eastern Orthodox, share that commonality in foundation. A person who doesn't is starting another religion.

Hmm....Constantine came close to that IMO, and there were others like him. The Church has no doctrines outside of Scripture and the witness of the disciples, however. The Church has but One Foundation. This Foundation is Yeshua and He is our High Priest, the Son of the Living God! Ephesians 2:19-20, Matthew 16:15-17, Hebrews 4:14

Let me reduce it then.

No. Too many have tried to do that already and they want to declare who believes in Him and who doesn't, who loves Him and who doesn't, who is worthy of Him and who isn't. That's NOT the Church's Foundation. That's the morality we have created, what you call silly, what I meant when I stated that the law profession is often at odds with the faith, serving two masters.

Jesus Christ....

Yup, Yeshua HaMashiach. 'Nuff said!!

 

[Town Heretic]

Not here in this thread. Let me qualify that by stating not up to the point where you and I started posting to each other.

I'm pretty sure we've settled the record of what we're talking about now anyway.

“Well alright, alright!” (I love Matthew McConnaughey!....well, not his criminal record...)

The bongos stuff? Just a young man with too much time and money. He appears to have worked out all right though.

Hmm....Constantine came close to that IMO, and there were others like him. The Church has no doctrines outside of Scripture and the witness of the disciples, however. The Church has but One Foundation. This Foundation is Yeshua and He is our High Priest, the Son of the Living God!

Muslims recognize that name, but they don't know him. They may even love that name, after a fashion, but it's not him. It's a sound they make to signify, a placeholder and incomplete.

No. Too many have tried to do that already and they want to declare who believes in Him and who doesn't, who loves Him and who doesn't, who is worthy of Him and who isn't.

I'm not speculating about the feeling of anyone. No one is worthy. And so grace...but grace has a source and that source isn't any man, great or small.

That's NOT the Church's Foundation.

Christ is and who he is must be that foundation. A great guy with a metaphysical diploma from God isn't the answer to that question. He isn't an ambassador, or a man conferred with authority. If you reject who he is then you're just making a sound when you say his name. It's empty of meaning, however you feel about the sound. And I use "you" in the generic, not particular. You might as well be Muslim.

Maybe I should just cut to the fundamental inquiry for any approaching Christ: was and is Jesus Christ God? That's the orthodox litmus in a nutshell.

Deny that and you might as well have put him on the cross.

 

[IMJerusha]

The bongos stuff?

:idunno:

Just a young man with too much time and money. He appears to have worked out all right though.

Smart people do after they've been arrested once.

Muslims recognize that name, but they don't know him. They may even love that name, after a fashion, but it's not him. It's a sound they make to signify, a placeholder and incomplete.

Let's try this again, "The Church has no doctrines outside of Scripture and the witness of the disciples, however." Ephesians 2:19-20

I'm not speculating about the feeling of anyone. No one is worthy. And so grace...but grace has a source and that source isn't any man, great or small.

Grace being one of those things given to Yeshua from the Father, as well as to us. The source of Grace is the Father. Luke 2:40 Yeshua is the vehicle of Grace, not the source and Yeshua was both man and the Son of God.

Christ is and who he is must be that foundation.

True. I've never stated otherwise. He is the Son of God and Mashiach.

A great guy with a metaphysical diploma from God isn't the answer to that question.

When someone states that Yeshua is the Son of God, they certainly aren't stating that He is a "great guy with a metaphysical diploma from God." John 3:36 states that "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

He isn't an ambassador,

Is Yeshua not the ambassador of the Father?...in other words the representative of the Father and the Father's Love for us?

or a man conferred with authority.

Yeshua stated that all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Him Matthew 28:18, John 3:35 John the Baptist stated of Yeshua in the flesh that God had conferred His authority on Him.

If you reject who he is then you're just making a sound when you say his name. It's empty of meaning, however you feel about the sound. And I use "you" in the generic, not particular. You might as well be Muslim.

No one who states that Yeshua is the Son of God is rejecting Him or just "making a sound" and Muslims certainly don't state that.

Maybe I should just cut to the fundamental inquiry for any approaching Christ: was and is Jesus Christ God? That's the orthodox litmus in a nutshell.

What has been twisted from the doctrine of the Trinity is that the Son is the Father when by Yeshua's own Words, the Son is NOT the Father. Mark 10:18, Matthew 7:21-23, John 15:1-17 So we must be careful how we state that Yeshua is God when Yeshua only stated that He is One with the Father. John 10:29-30, John 5:19-13

Deny that and you might as well have put him on the cross.

Oh, Town, we all put Him on the Cross. Anyone who ever sinned put Him on the Cross and every time we sin we deny Him. That is why we "take the bus to confession."

 

[Town Heretic]

True. I've never stated otherwise. He is the Son of God and Mashiach.

People who don't believe in Jesus as God have said that.

When someone states that Yeshua is the Son of God, they certainly aren't stating that He is a "great guy with a metaphysical diploma from God."

They are if they don't mean by that that Jesus is God incarnate.

John 3:36 states that "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

You can't believe in the Son if you don't know who he is.

Is Yeshua not the ambassador of the Father?...in other words the representative of the Father and the Father's Love for us?

He is God made flesh. He existed before the foundations of the world, not merely after the miraculous conception. Is that part of your belief?

Oh, Town, we all put Him on the Cross. Anyone who ever sinned put Him on the Cross and every time we sin we deny Him. That is why we "take the bus to confession."

Oh, IMJ, our sin did that, but we don't have to compound the error by denying him and orthodox Christianity doesn't. Those who reject the trinity do, sadly.

 

[IMJerusha]

People who don't believe in Jesus as God have said that.

Jesus as God or Jesus in God and God in He; Yeshua, One with God? John 14: 10-11, John 15:10, John 10:30 To whom do we pray? Do we pray to Yeshua or do we pray to the Father in Yeshua's Name?

They are if they don't mean by that that Jesus is God incarnate.

No, they're not.

You can't believe in the Son if you don't know who he is.

Who He is is the Son of God and that is enough if one believes Scripture.

He is God made flesh. He existed before the foundations of the world, not merely after the miraculous conception. Is that part of your belief?

Yeshua is the Son of God made flesh, One with the Father and the One through Whom the Father created. John 1:1-3 So yes, Yeshua would have had to have existed before God created. He is not the Father or He would not have instructed us to pray to the Father in His Name. Scripture states that Yeshua is the Word, that the Word became flesh, made His dwelling with us and came from the Father. John 1:14 So, therefore, Yeshua is not the Father but is One with the Father. John 10:30 As He came from the Father, He bears the attributes of the Father but is not the Father. John 5:19 If He were the Father, He would know the day of His return but only the Father knows. Matthew 24:36

Oh, IMJ, our sin did that, but we don't have to compound the error by denying him and orthodox Christianity doesn't. Those who reject the trinity do, sadly.

It's tough for people to understand the doctrine of the Trinity and nowhere does Scripture state that this must be understood in order to have life. Nowhere does Scripture state that failure to accept the doctrine of the Trinity constitutes denial of Yeshua. Orthodox Christianity is this...belief in God the Father, Yeshua HaMashiach as His One and Only Son, and the Ruach, the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 3:6 Our hope is in and through Yeshua, not the doctrine of the Trinity. We need to be very careful not to add to Scripture.

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Corinthians 1:2

 

[chrysostom]

good morning

good morning

so what is new?

there will not be a government shut down

how do you know that?

boehner said so

how would he know?

he is not an idiot

he has to deal with idiots

don't we all?

 

[IMJerusha]

Well, I'm sorry to see John Boehner resign.

 

[Town Heretic]

No, they're not.

Sure they are. Either Jesus is God or Jesus isn't. I'm with the "is" crowd. You can't be in both is and isn't and if you aren't in the "is" crowd then your sins are yours, since only God, not any man, can forgive sin. The Pharisees understood that, which is one reason they were so put out with Jesus. Jesus could forgive sin

"And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" Luke 5:21​

precisely because he is a part of the "we/our/us" of the trinity, declared in

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26​

That's the root of the thing. The rest is a discussion on the nature and attributes of the trinity, including subordination in relation to tasks, as in the Holy Spirit being sent to man in the name of Jesus as Jesus is sent in the name of the Father.

Yeshua is the Son of God made flesh, One with the Father and the One through Whom the Father created. John 1:1-3 So yes, Yeshua would have had to have existed before God created. He is not the Father or He would not have instructed us to pray to the Father in His Name.

No one is arguing against the existence of God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit, for that matter. That is, no one who accepts the trinity is arguing against the nature of that trinity. But those who would treat the Father as God and Jesus as something less have a problem.

It's tough for people to understand the doctrine of the Trinity and nowhere does Scripture state that this must be understood in order to have life.

I didn't say you had to understand the trinity. I said you had to understand that Jesus Christ is God and that as God he can forgive your sin.

 

[Tambora]

But those who would treat the Father as God and Jesus as something less have a problem.

:thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

Sure they are. Either Jesus is God or Jesus isn't. I'm with the "is" crowd. You can't be in both is and isn't and if you aren't in the "is" crowd then your sins are yours, since only God, not any man, can forgive sin. The Pharisees understood that, which is one reason they were so put out with Jesus. Jesus could forgive sin

"And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" Luke 5:21​

precisely because he is a part of the "we/our/us" of the trinity, declared in

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26​

That's the root of the thing. The rest is a discussion on the nature and attributes of the trinity, including subordination in relation to tasks, as in the Holy Spirit being sent to man in the name of Jesus as Jesus is sent in the name of the Father.


No one is arguing against the existence of God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit, for that matter. That is, no one who accepts the trinity is arguing against the nature of that trinity. But those who would treat the Father as God and Jesus as something less have a problem.


I didn't say you had to understand the trinity. I said you had to understand that Jesus Christ is God and that as God he can forgive your sin.

Well done, Town. :thumb:

 

[IMJerusha]

Sure they are.

No, they're not. Actually, you're the one who stated that here. I haven't viewed anything of the sort from any non-trinitarians here.

Either Jesus is God or Jesus isn't. I'm with the "is" crowd. You can't be in both is and isn't and if you aren't in the "is" crowd then your sins are yours, since only God, not any man, can forgive sin. The Pharisees understood that, which is one reason they were so put out with Jesus.

"And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" Luke 5:21​

It appears you are stating that the Son is the Father. I don't believe that is what the "is" crowd states but I'm seeing a lot more of that Pharisaical stuff as we move further into the end times. We must be careful we do not do that. Yeshua was given authority by the Father because the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Without the Father and without that authority, Yeshua would not be able to forgive sin. That is Yeshua's own testimony which the Pharisees did not understand.

Jesus could forgive sin.precisely because he is a part of the "we/our/us" of the trinity, declared in

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26​

Supra and as I have already stated, from John we know that Yeshua was with the Father at the creation and that He created all things through Yeshua. John was confirming Genesis. No big shock there, but it does not mean that the Son is the Father. We need to be careful not to imply that the doctrine of the Trinity states that unless we want to push the twisting of that doctrine to the contrary of Yeshua.

That's the root of the thing. The rest is a discussion on the nature and attributes of the trinity, including subordination in relation to tasks, as in the Holy Spirit being sent to man in the name of Jesus as Jesus is sent in the name of the Father.

Bluntly, the root of the thing (the faith) is Yeshua and the Father is the gardener. John 15:1 According to Yeshua, there's a whole lot more than subordination in relation to tasks. There's the fact that all power and glory belong to the Father and the Son can do nothing without the Father. John 14: 13, John 5:19 In relation to the Ruach, the Son asked the Father to send the Ruach and one other thing Town, whenever you are speaking of the Ruach, don't at any time relegate Him in any way to subordination. Matthew 12:32

 

[Town Heretic]

It appears you are stating that the Son is the Father.

Then stop squinting because I haven't done anything of the sort. That's not what believing in the trinity entails.

Yeshua was given authority by the Father because the Father is in Him and He is in the Father.

Here's a simpler way of putting it: Jesus Christ is God, as is the Father and as is the Holy Spirit.

...it does not mean that the Son is the Father.

I not only didn't say Jesus was the Father (or the Holy Spirit) I noted that there is a whole separate discussion of the nature of the three in one and subordination in particular tasks. But none of that impacts the divinity of Christ.

Bluntly, the root of the thing (the faith) is Yeshua and the Father is the gardener.

I think you confuse the issue by putting all your emphasis on the roles necessary for accomplishing our salvation when the important thing is who is actually accomplishing it, which is to say, God.

whenever you are speaking of the Ruach, don't at any time relegate Him in any way to subordination.

I don't relegate any part of the trinity, I noted subordination in task or process, as in when the Son says, "Thy will." You should be careful with your impulse on that note.

:e4e:

 

[IMJerusha]

Then stop squinting because I haven't done anything of the sort.

The implication is certainly there.

That's not what believing in the trinity entails.

That's what I've been stating all along.

Here's a simpler way of putting it: Jesus Christ is God, as is the Father and as is the Holy Spirit.

Would you be so kind as to show me where in Scripture Yeshua put it that way?

I not only didn't say Jesus was the Father (or the Holy Spirit) I noted that there is a whole separate discussion of the nature of the three in one and subordination in particular tasks. But none of that impacts the divinity of Christ.

I'll state this again. No one who states that Yeshua is the Son of God is denying His divinity. It's impossible. Yeshua has divinity by virtue of His Sonship. 1John 4:15 And no one who declares Yeshua the Son of God is outside of the faith.

I think you confuse the issue by putting all your emphasis on the roles necessary for accomplishing our salvation when the important thing is who is actually accomplishing it, which is to say, God.

By His Grace through the blood of His Son, Yeshua, He being in obedience to the Father. I'm not confusing the issue. You are putting forth something that the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't state, that the Son is the Father and you keep doing it all the while you deny it.

I don't relegate any part of the trinity,

Yes, you do and you've done it again right here. You have relegated God to a doctrine for the purpose of declaring salvation for the "is" crowd and something else for those who don't hold with the doctrine when Scripture states otherwise. That's one of the saddest things Christians do to one another.

I noted subordination in task or process, as in when the Son says, "Thy will."

You noted subordination in regard to the Ruach and nothing subordinates the Ruach in either task or process.

You should be careful with your impulse on that note.

Just calling the spade a spade by the Word of God and the authority of my Head.

:e4e:

:e4e:

 

[patrick jane]

John 14:28 KJV -

 

[Town Heretic]

The implication is certainly there.

Not on this end. :nono:

Would you be so kind as to show me where in Scripture Yeshua put it that way?

So, to be clear, you deny Christ is God? There's no real point to your challenge otherwise and I've been clear enough in my position to bring this to a point.

Yeshua has divinity by virtue of His Sonship. 1John 4:15 And no one who declares Yeshua the Son of God is outside of the faith.

Rather, Jesus is God because he always has been, as per the implication of Genesis in conjunction with other scripture.

By His Grace through the blood of His Son, Yeshua, He being in obedience to the Father. I'm not confusing the issue. You are putting forth something that the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't state, that the Son is the Father and you keep doing it all the while you deny it.

You're willfully mistaken, since I clarified on the point. I have at no time suggested that the Father is the Holy Spirit or the Son. But I have at every point declared Jesus Christ to be God and if you have a problem with that then, well, you're another heretic, at odds with fundamental Christian orthodoxy.

Yes, you do and you've done it again right here. You have relegated God to a doctrine

Completely untrue and nonsensical.

for the purpose of declaring salvation for the "is" crowd

Rather, I have noted that even the Pharisees understood what you appear to reject and I have set that where it must be, as the foundation of salvation and the faith.

That's one of the saddest things Christians do to one another.

No, the saddest thing someone professing Christ can do is to mislead those who are in need of salvation by proffering a false gospel that cannot save them. And that I will never do.

 

[glorydaz]

You're willfully mistaken, since I clarified on the point. I have at no time suggested that the Father is the Holy Spirit or the Son. But I have at every point declared Jesus Christ to be God and if you have a problem with that then, well, you're another heretic, at odds with fundamental Christian orthodoxy.

Great job, counselor, you have gotten to the heart of the matter. :thumb:

 

[meshak]

So, to be clear, you deny Christ is God?

Oh, please. Jerusha claimed she believes in the trinity many times.

You don't understand her point?

I did, clearly. Don't you have phd? Don't you have to have high IQ to obtain that high education?

Jerusha's point is that it is not biblical to claim non-trins are non-believers because they claim Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world. And Jesus is their Lord.

 

[patrick jane]

Oh, please. Jerusha claimed she believes in the trinity many times.

You don't understand her point?

I did, clearly. Don't you have phd? Don't you have to have high IQ to obtain that high education?

Jerusha's point is that it is not biblical to claim non-trins are non-believers because they claim Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world. And Jesus is their Lord.

are you insulting TH's intelligence ?

 

[Town Heretic]

Oh, please. Jerusha claimed she believes in the trinity many times.

Then she's drawing a peculiar line in the sand.

You don't understand her point?

If I didn't that would be a silly question, when you think about it.

I did, clearly. Don't you have phd? Don't you have to have high IQ to obtain that high education?

Sure, but you don't have to have any of that to cast aspersions and posture.

Like I have to tell you.

Jerusha's point is that it is not biblical to claim non-trins are non-believers because they claim Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world. And Jesus is their Lord.

Pretty sure I answered on that. Maybe that's what it means about some saying "Lord, lord" and being told to depart. In any event, you don't need a doctorate or a high IQ to note what I wrote more than once on the point about sin and who could and who couldn't forgive it.