Theology Club: I'm a heretic (probably...you tell me)

[Danoh]

You have no evidence either article is mistranscribed, so your accusation is unwarranted. In fact, the second one -- did you even notice? -- is linked directly from Grace Impact, Jordan's own website.

You are not dealing honestly here and I don't do well with the dishonest. Your repeated "lol" isn't helping. It's best we take a break.

Oh, just noticed this...



We're done.

I've followed many a ministry for years - these men - none of them - say a thing not often based on a whole lot more.

Not only that, but time in the Word would make obvious there is much more than a few passages behind any issue.

Consider also that you allowed yourself to take offence rather than apply it, the passages I quoted.

Consider also that you did not take me up on my offer.

That what you are contributing to your own understanding by your attitude is the derailing of the opportunity to understand these things from a wider perspective than you perhaps have considered.

You complain that so and so meant such and such, but when I assert from my own time in this that there is more to this than what you are accusing one of our own as having fallen short of, you decline the very opportunity you assert that brother did not give you by what he supposedly actually meant according to you.

Hey, if you do not know how to explore this, that's okay. There was a time I did not either. I haven't forgotten that. I can relate - if that is the case.

I know this much. I understand it because I looked into it, no matter who invited, or what seemingly ****-a-mamie- assertion they appeared to be asserting.

I leave you to your professed solution - "ye are straightened in your own bowels, not... in us."

The best to you in that. I'll probably be around when you want to explore this like we should.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I agree

I believe God gives wisdom

Jas_1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

1Ti 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

:e4e:

*
Epistles

to one is given the gifts of healing, to another gifts of working miracles. prophecy, tongues etc...you know it.

He who does miracles among you does He do it by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

I came with power and demonstrations of the Holy Ghost

stir up the gift that is in you by the laying on of my hands

He ascended on high with a shout giving gifts to men

But covet the higher gifts especially that you may prophecy

 

[Tambora]

My answer always lines up with "Is grace sufficient?". My answer is always yes.
And if grace is indeed sufficient, then NOTHING else is needed. Not even prayer.

In no way does that mean that I don't think prayer can be beneficial or that it should be avoided.

Yep!

And...once more, I've been proven a long wind by the simple words of a worthy post - when will I learn that less yada, is more.

:bang: and :rotfl:

 

[Danoh]

Lol - just one halleluiah?

 

[way 2 go]

*
Epistles

to one is given the gifts of healing, to another gifts of working miracles. prophecy, tongues etc...you know it.

He who does miracles among you does He do it by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

I came with power and demonstrations of the Holy Ghost

stir up the gift that is in you by the laying on of my hands

He ascended on high with a shout giving gifts to men

But covet the higher gifts especially that you may prophecy

did you find a specific miracle in the Epistles ?

 

[musterion]

Do you think that the work of an evangelist was just temporary?

The giftings that were given to do such work at that time is the point here, Jerry, not the work itself.

If memory serves, in Ephesians Paul spoke in the past tense; he said God gave such, not God gives or is giving such.

 

[Tambora]

Lol - just one halleluiah?

It's a big one!

 

[Totton Linnet]

did you find a specific miracle in the Epistles ?

No there were miracles set as an ongoing function in the body of Christ....in other assemblies God was doing miracles in response to the people hearing with faith.

We have the body of Christ today but it is not as Paul described it, the body is there but none [or precious little] of the body functions.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I'm gunna butte out before STP comes and tells me off. :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The giftings that were given to do such work at that time is the point here, Jerry, not the work itself.

If memory serves, in Ephesians Paul spoke in the past tense; he said God gave such, not God gives or is giving such.

Actually, the "aorist" tense is used for the Greek word translated "gave" in this passage.

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (Eph.4:11-15).​

I do not see that there is any reason to suppose that there is no need anymore for evangelists, pastors and teachers, especiallysince those gifts were given "until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God."

I do not think the time has ever come when "all" have reached a unity in the faith so I cannot understand why we still do not need those gifts.

 

[Tambora]

I'm gunna butte out before STP comes and tells me off. :chuckle:

ROFL!

 

[musterion]

Actually, the "aorist" tense is used for the Greek word translated "gave" in this passage.

Yes, simple past action if I'm not mistaken.

I do not see that there is any reason to suppose that there is no need anymore for evangelists, pastors and teachers,

Already addresses that.

especiallysince those gifts were given "until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God."

I do not think the time has ever come when "all" have reached a unity in the faith so I cannot understand why we still do not need those gifts.

Then you must also allow that some today are given to be apostles.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, simple past action if I'm not mistaken.

No, they will be given "until" we all reach unity in the faith. That certainly has not yet happened. In fact, we are in great need of pastors and teachers because of the confusion that exists in Christianity today.

Now I am going to sit back and watch my Dallas Cowboys put a sound beating on the New York Giants!

 

[glorydaz]

They're still pastors/teachers/whatever IF they're qualified per Paul's requirements. If he should try to excuse any erroneous teaching or moral failure by saying "I'm called of God!" or "I have the gift, you don't!" I'd reject him as false and find another church. God does not cause confusion among us, which would be exactly what he's claiming God did through him (but Paul already covered that in his list).

I think the sign gifts were for the early church and the Jews in particular. I've never seen where pastors are supposed to be teachers...although that's what's popular today. As far as teachers, I've been taught by some brand new believers from some particular portion of scripture the Lord has opened to their understanding in a wonderful way. We're all evangelists, are we not, sharing the Gospel with who the Lord brings our way though not necessarily called to the mission field?

It's ever that danger that when people consider themselves to be teachers, etc. that pride enters in. I recognize some are blessed with the ability to teach, but rarely do they see that in themselves.

As far as prayer goes, I agree completely with you, musterion. I don't care if it fits with Acts 2, 9, 13, or 28. I have had way too many prayers answered over the past forty plus years and seen the prayers of others answered to ever call it mere coincidence. I believe all my prayers are answered...sometimes with a no, but always with an understanding that my request was amiss. I've even been thankful a specific request was denied because it would have been unprofitable compared to what actually happened. In the same way, I would tell my own children NO because I knew it was not for their good. Your analogy of a loving father was right on. :thumb:

What a great thread this has turned out to be....and it was "reborn" from an earlier time. Way cool.

 

[Danoh]

10 to 1 that those asserting the gift of Pastor and Teacher as ongoing, believe themselves, if not their favorite Pastor/Teacher, its recipient.

I get that all the time "you, you have an anointing..." that kind of a thing.

Me, little ol "been studying recurrent patterns ever since way when I was still lost" me...

Confirmation Bias: In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.

www.sciencedaily.com/terms/confirmation_bias.htm

I used to be there, and know it's recurrent patterns well.

Not for me anymore.

To each his own, Rom. 14: 5; 23.

 

[musterion]

No, they will be given "until" we all reach unity in the faith. That certainly has not yet happened. In fact, we are in great need of pastors and teachers because of the confusion that exists in Christianity today.

Now I am going to sit back and watch my Dallas Cowboys put a sound beating on the New York Giants!

You do that. Before you go, keep in mind that Paul wrote Ephesians about four or so years before he wrote 2nd Timothy. Notice how positive Paul's outlook has become regarding the future condition of the Church right before the end of his course, especially in light of how he was abandoned by people who had acknowledged the very ministry he was referring to in Ephesians. Things were very different by that point. So was his outlook.

And when you're done with your game, perhaps you be kind enough to tell everyone how to spot a God gifted apostle today.

 

[musterion]

I think the sign gifts were for the early church and the Jews in particular. I've never seen where pastors are supposed to be teachers...although that's what's popular today. As far as teachers, I've been taught by some brand new believers from some particular portion of scripture the Lord has opened to their understanding in a wonderful way. We're all evangelists, are we not, sharing the Gospel with who the Lord brings our way though not necessarily called to the mission field?

It's ever that danger that when people consider themselves to be teachers, etc. that pride enters in. I recognize some are blessed with the ability to teach, but rarely do they see that in themselves.

As far as prayer goes, I agree completely with you, musterion. I don't care if it fits with Acts 2, 9, 13, or 28. I have had way too many prayers answered over the past forty plus years and seen the prayers of others answered to ever call it mere coincidence. I believe all my prayers are answered...sometimes with a no, but always with an understanding that my request was amiss. I've even been thankful a specific request was denied because it would have been unprofitable compared to what actually happened. In the same way, I would tell my own children NO because I knew it was not for their good. Your analogy of a loving father was right on. :thumb:

What a great thread this has turned out to be....and it was "reborn" from an earlier time. Way cool.

Bless you, beloved!

 

[Clete]

Besides........why would Paul give that list of requirements to fill a role for those who (presumably) are gifted to fill that role? They'd miraculously meet those reqs, making the reqs moot. That's why I lean toward the "service gifts" being disregarded as just as much a relic of the transitional period as water baptisms.

This is the argument!

I'm convinced. I agree with you.

Good catch, by the way! I'm certain this would never have occurred to me.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Danoh]

I think the sign gifts were for the early church and the Jews in particular. I've never seen where pastors are supposed to be teachers...although that's what's popular today. As far as teachers, I've been taught by some brand new believers from some particular portion of scripture the Lord has opened to their understanding in a wonderful way. We're all evangelists, are we not, sharing the Gospel with who the Lord brings our way though not necessarily called to the mission field?

It's ever that danger that when people consider themselves to be teachers, etc. that pride enters in. I recognize some are blessed with the ability to teach, but rarely do they see that in themselves.

As far as prayer goes, I agree completely with you, musterion. I don't care if it fits with Acts 2, 9, 13, or 28. I have had way too many prayers answered over the past forty plus years and seen the prayers of others answered to ever call it mere coincidence. I believe all my prayers are answered...sometimes with a no, but always with an understanding that my request was amiss. I've even been thankful a specific request was denied because it would have been unprofitable compared to what actually happened. In the same way, I would tell my own children NO because I knew it was not for their good. Your analogy of a loving father was right on. :thumb:

What a great thread this has turned out to be....and it was "reborn" from an earlier time. Way cool.

Yay! Glorydaz is back!

Hey loved one in the Lord; thanks for your contribution.

Explored in or not, we differ on this, and that's fine by me - "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin," Rom. 14:23.

Please, if you find you do not understand what I mean by quoting that part of that verse in this context, feel free to ask me; you know I've got your back. D.

 

[musterion]

This is the argument!

I'm convinced. I agree with you.

Good catch, by the way! I'm certain this would never have occurred to me.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I live to serve, brother.