journey
New member
I agree completely - excellent post.
Theology Club: I'm a heretic (probably...you tell me)
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
I agree completely - excellent post.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Thanks, D. I appreciate that, and you're right....I have no clue about what exactly we don't agree on or why you posted that particular verse or what it's in relation to. Is it about prayer or the gifts?
there are plenty -
way 2 go
Well-known member
Hey, a Cessasionist kitty - the "leper'd" licking his own wounds, lol
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Doesn't sound like he was too positive, as witnessed by his warning here:
"But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Tim.2:16-18).
That is why he said that gifts would continue being given to equip his people for works of service UNTIL we all reach unity in the faith:
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (Eph.4:11-15).
Common sense dictates that gifts are still being given because those in the Body have not yet reached a unity in the faith. But you continue to ignore this fact. Do you think that we have all reached unity in the faith?
Of course we haven't and the various opinions found on this forum prove it. Despite this you can somehow imagine that we have indeed reached unity in the faith. How else can you explain your idea that the gifts are no longer needed or are no longer being given?
The "apostles" and "prophets" were initially given to equip Christians for works of service. But their work was foundational in nature and once the foundation was laid then it was not necessary for those gifts to be continued to be given. However, the other gifts serve to help Christians attain to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Now please explain why you think that the gifts have been discontinued to be given despite the fact that Paul made it plain that they will continue to be given UNTIL those in the Body reach a unity of the faith?
You haven't yet addressed those facts!
musterion
Well-known member
Exactly my point. In contrast, Ephesians was upbeat and positive in tone. There'd been a major change between the two writings.
Then in 2,000 years God has been unable to see it happen, and the situation grows worse all the time. Did He fail? No. Pauline revelation had not yet been rejected by the Church, due to grievous wolves and false skins of godliness, when Paul wrote to the Ephesians.
By the time of 2 Timothy, however, the Spirit told him what was now going to happen, overriding his hope of oneness in Ephesians. What was coming, and has come, would be grim.
2 Tim 3 describes the then-future condition of the professing church. Does it foretell a Body in oneness, united around Paul's revelations, per his hope in Ephesians? No. Falseness, heresy and iniquity? Yes.
Your common sense may dictate that, but what was perhaps the final revelation Paul received said the opposite. I know which one I'm going to believe.
Nope. 2 Timothy explains why not.
I have now adequately addressed your points. You, on the other hand, are citing human tradition when you say that some of the gifts Paul mentioned in Ephesians are gone while others remain. Paul made no such distinction; either all are in action today or none are. You are a dishonest, careless handler of the Word of God.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
First you asserted that Paul became more positive as time went by:
And then when I quoted from 2 Timothy which demonstrated that Paul wasn't so positive right before the end of his course you turn around and say that he was more positive earlier:
And then you say that I am a dishonest handler of the word.
I see this all the time on this forum. When someone can't answer the message they attack the messenger.
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Thanks, D. I appreciate that, and you're right....I have no clue about what exactly we don't agree on or why you posted that particular verse or what it's in relation to. Is it about prayer or the gifts?
Good day, sis,
We differ in the above in the sense that, whereas you hold that God still works today outside of His Word...
I, on the other hand, hold that God only works today, by His Spirit resident, in the inward man of the Believer, through His Word.
We see this as His signs in the Gentiles for a sign to His sign people: Israel, that He was (temporarily) moving away from them (Romans 11's "diminishing away"), came to a close, Isaiah 8:18; 1 Cor. 14: 21-22; Acts 28:28.
I'll come back to that in another post, as I want touch on something just as important.
I ended the previous post as I did, because, in this issue, as with all others, for me, for example here, to insist that you (or anyone in the faith) believe a thing as I do, would be to insist that you/they sin, "for whatsoever is not of faith" (not something you/they perhaps do not presently hold to in the same manner, if ever) "is sin," Rom. 14:23.
As he had written earlier, in 2 Cor. 1:
24. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
You stand by faith; by the faith of Christ; by what He alone accomplished.
In this, none of us have any business insisting anyone in the Son, believe as we do just so we can be impressed with what a smart individual we are, or whatever each person's issue might be that they have yet brought to and left, at the Cross, despite all their talk of having all the right answers, including this fool writing these very words to you, here.
You stand by faith, sis. By what He accomplished for you to just put out your precious hand, and grab a hold of - Eternal Life!
There is "healing" in that, that no physical delivery can ever match!
As Tammy put it, "His grace is sufficient!"
Now this, I do insist you rest all your cares in, lol
Much love to you, in the Lord.
:thumb:
As he had written earlier, in 2 Cor. 1:
24. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
You stand by faith; by the faith of Christ; by what He alone accomplished.
24. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
You stand by faith; by the faith of Christ; by what He alone accomplished.
Signed, sealed, delivered.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Hey, Tam...
Sure you do...
Yours especially...
A non-response is one answer...
You see...
But even most non-responses are so
simply because we do not pay attention
to the events that ARE our answers ...
Reality is the ontological answer...
When we pray with tears in profound need...
The answers come...
When we pray for our favorite ice cream...
Silence is a really good answer...
Jes' sayin'...
A.
That seems to be the answer most given.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Properly so, because word answers are shallow, and events speak the ontological answers that matter...
Or, to quote a friend of mine:
"Talk is cheap, and experience is the only teacher..."
God's answers are ontological...
Which makes discipleship a reality-quest...
A.
i like those colored contacts kitty has. aqua blue ?
musterion
Well-known member
My "positive" comment was deliberate sarcasm in order to make the exact opposite point -- that in 2 Timothy, Paul was not at all positive and hopeful for the future, as he had been in years before to the Ephesians. But I figured you'd feel insulted if I pointed out that it was sarcasm. I figured you'd be able to pick up on such a simple rhetorical device. I figured wrong.
Now that you've embarrassed yourself even more than you already had, feel free to tell us how many apostles are among us today and how we can know they're apostles. Since your stated position demands that the gift of apostles is still in operation, I mean.
Or will you continue to dodge this issue in a less than honest fashion?
way 2 go
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
The rest of your post is fine, but this part is kinda silly if you ask me. In the first place, prayer has absolutely nothing to do with gifts. It does have to do with the Spirit who indwells us (in the inward man) which is how we commune with the Lord. He very often answers us through His word, especially as to why we may not receive what we have requested...we do find answers in the scripture, and I'm not denying that. However, when we see our prayers being answered, we are not to count it as coincidence. I will never agree to that, and I think it's wrong. I don't see how you can even compare prayer and intercession with any gift.
Phil. 4:6-7 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
So, I'm thinking maybe you aren't quite perfect about looking at things from someone else's viewpoint after all. :chuckle:
I ask this with all sincerity .....
How do you tell the difference between God personally intervening and coincidence?