Theology Club: I'm a heretic (probably...you tell me)

[glorydaz]

First, the Meshak persona isn't my sister and she certainly doesn't consider me her/their brother. Second, she/they have done no personal offense to me that I feel the need to forgive. She/they are wicked, but wicked to everyone. So what IS your point? Do you even have one?

The point is everybody needs to be nice and pretend that everyone who posts on this site is a believer. Liberals....ya gotta just shake your head, don't ya? :chuckle:

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not so sure it's the body of Christ that is lacking, but the churches.

Matt 24:15 We are seeing the culmination of the Great Apostacy begun a thousand years ago, and accelerated 500 years ago, and now encroaching in some of the Orthodox Churches, as the practice of the Faith is eroded ever more and more by the decay of the times... The desecration of "Holy Place" marks the approach of the end...

You are right - The churches are losing their embrace of God...

It's why so many have gone outside the camp, and are meeting in private homes. A return to our roots, if you will.

It happened in Russia prior to the Communist Revolution - The Churches were coming more and more under the domination of the State and the forced importation of the Latins at the hands of, to begin with, Peter the [not so] Great, the persecution of the traditional "Old Believers", and moved through, under the atheists, the use of the confessional for State sponsored espionage upon the people... There are still in Russia some Home Churches - Catacomb Churches... Many do not go to Church who consider themselves Orthodox Christians...

In the good ol' US of A, the trend seems to be toward rock bands singing Christian songs on stages, [eg 'worship leaders'] and all manner of scandal among the Latins... The Orthodox are holding up much better, but not uniformly so... The times are evil...

So Glory to God, Glory... We are in agreement on something at last... We differ on the roots, for our roots are the historic Apostolic Church as it has been handed down for 2000 years, and yours is more of, if I may say so, a leap of one's personal faith into the Grace of God and the living of a Spiritual life in this manner in freedom from all external [eg ecclesiastical] obedience...

Will you please forgive me for my scrappiness in our disagreements on this forum... I can get pretty obnoxious and provocative, and have done so with you, and I have never, to my recall, acknowledged you for the faith in which you live... I am sorry...

Please forgive me...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Not seeing your point, please explain.

Paul is calling his followers to become Apostolic...

Many did so...

Do you believe that is the case?

Of course - Each generation has its own specific issues to address, which God gives the means [read Grace] to attend...

Which specific gifts do you refer to?

The Apostolic Gifts - Prophetic Gifts of foresight, insight, hindsight... The Gifts of healings of body and soul, the gift of preaching the Kingdom of God... The full panoply of Holy Gifts which God gives to those who become "even as we", as Paul expresses His desire for us to become as he had become... eg The "most wretched of all men"... It is therein that the Apostolic Gifts are given by God, and it is therein that post-modern man does not enter, and thereby he denies the existence of the Apostolic Gifts and consigns them to the garbage heap of history...

Who is 'we'? Your church or denomination?

Acts 11:26 The Church in Antioch... The Orthodox Christian Body of Christ of 2000 years... Paul simply refers to Churches as the Church in Antioch, the Church in Caesaria, the Church in Thessalonica, the Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria etc... One Church, many geographies, all the Orthodox Faith...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

If God still calls certain people, presumably only men, to pastoral ministry, how does a man know he has been called? More to the point: how can others in a local body know a man has been called? Paul said that if any man desires that office it's a good thing, but there said nothing about God calling him, only that he needs to fulfill certain requirements.

So what is the test that a man is truly "called of God" today? Doctrinal fidelity? Fidelity to what? Almost no pastor preaches Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. The number that do so worldwide today is probably in the low few thousands, if that. The rest do not recognize it and may oppose it...and they all claim some kind of calling.

For the Orthodox, the calling is hallmarked by obedience to the Church, and in this obedience one's calling is made manifest... It is not, as you question seems to imply, a merely personal calling that must then be "sold" to "buyers" who believe one's calling to be authentic... We are called to serve, and the higher the "rank", the greater the "service", such that those at the top, the Bishops, should find themselves having virtually no personal life except that of prayer in which they move and breathe...

And alas, many fall short, for the Way is narrow and hard, and the uncounted cost is high... But there are always some... Even if a little hidden...

Arsenios

 

[Danoh]

I've been a MAD for going on 10 years. In that time, I've met (as I'm sure many of you have) or communicated with several "names" within the movement, some bigger, some smaller, but still "names." It soon became apparent that for whatever reason - the flesh, I suppose - there were many unexpected divisions within the "Grace movement" that I naively did not expect to find at first. Yet there they are...some are necessary divisions over irreconcilable doctrinal differences while others (I won't yet say which) strike me as pointless time-wasters. And there are still others which I find to be glaring issues which never, ever seem to get on the radar of the Grace movement as a whole; things most folks see but never discuss. It troubles me, but Christ will sort it all out at the Rapture, then at the Bema.

There is one issue, though, which very, VERY few even consider thinking about. I'm one of them. This...suspicion I have (I can't call it a belief because I can't 100% prove it) will likely get me banned from any fellowship I belonged to; in fact it would very likely preclude it. Without beating around the bush further, I'll just spill it and see who replies:

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled. By "all," I mean ALL of them...not just the sign gifts, which goes without saying as they were for unbelieving Israel's conviction, but the ministerial gifts claimed by thousands throughout the centuries since. I believe this is possible for a few Scriptural reasons as well as for a few real-world practical ones but, naturally, to even broach the subject in most places would be enough to get you shunned if not officially disfellowshipped.

Anyone else think the way I do? Again, I'm not totally convinced of it but...I wonder. This suspicion is not new to me as a MAD but goes way back to my loosey-goosey campus ministry beginnings and my later indie-fundie Baptist days...so I've been chewing it over for a loooong time. But if my suspicion is true, man oh man would it explain A LOT.

I welcome any and all thoughts, rebukes and accusations of heresy.

I'll take that even further as is.

Many who do hold to that exactly as you wrote it - that all the gifts have ceased - will then assert things from everyday circumstances they believe God had something to do with.

You yourself have done that yourself, on here, on occasion, lol

By the time of Paul's latter letters he is talking "if a man desire the office of..." 1 Tm. 3:1.

What this issue really boils down to is how each person examines it.

Meaning, are they even doing that examining soundly?

What principles might determine that?

Belief, and its close cousins, learned, and concluded beliefs, play a strong role in the mis-understanding of all this.

Was "that which is perfect...come" that "that which is in part" was "done away" - 1 Cor. 13:10?

It depends not only on where one looks for an answer, but how one looks, and what one thinks one is looking at.

Very few are as objective about a thing as they would like to think.

One clue - how easily they will shut others out when they encounter what challenges their assertions - to where they take personal offence.

One has to ever be willing to look at what another is asserting no matter how much one disagrees with what it can just as often only appear to be asserting.

I was there. I know.

The first time I heard the Cessasionist view, I was shocked by it.

Fortunately, the KJVO-A9D person I first heard it from knew all its ins and out like few I have ever encountered, heard, or read to this very day.

And I am not one easily impressed by the few who most would conclude really profound.

Later, as this sense of shift in my Paradigm ceased to be at the forefront of my awareness, and I went back to my day to day, I began to note inconsistencies in my newly adopted view - what was obviously still a holdover from beliefs I had obviously held prior to that shocking moment.

Later, I found I was not alone in this. That this kind of a realization that there was an inconsistency between the supposed conclusion the professed practice of the hermeneutic had resulted in and its actual application in one's examining of their day to day as to where and how God was working, had quietly been taking place in the inner man of others for years... until Jordan made an issue of it at a conference, got in trouble for doing so, but found that others had been coming to a similar day to day understanding, but had been quiet about it for the anathema stink bomb it threatened to unleash against them from the more commonly held status quo belief, despite the obvious inconsistency in their hermeneutic it made so obvious to all but to the most legalistic, set in their ways "you're being divisive" nonsense they right off accuse one of.

The "that's not for us!!!" crowd.

Who have never gotten to what they assert - "well, see, the mystery is the key to peace among the brethren."

So long as it is "their" version of what's what, and how God does, or does not work, and all the rest of their own little club's malarkey...

Does God work outside of His Word in the inward man at all?

I hold that He does not. Many more do as well.

But even within our own ranks, it does not appear many have really sat down and examined the actual consistency of their belief in this.

And that's people who hold the view that, no, He does not work outside of His Word in you that believe.

In the end, the best position is just to remain fascinated about it all.

But not only about it all, but also, about what principles might help one understand how to "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves...," 2 Cor. 13:5, as to this and all the other issues that only being A9D ever keeps so fascinating...

As if a kind of an "Alice in the Looking Glass" effect is built into this "manifold wisdom of God in a Mystery..."

 

[patrick jane]

Ephesians 3:2-4 KJV and 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 -


Ephesians 3:10-11 KJV -

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I've been a MAD for going on 10 years. In that time, I've met (as I'm sure many of you have) or communicated with several "names" within the movement, some bigger, some smaller, but still "names." It soon became apparent that for whatever reason - the flesh, I suppose - there were many unexpected divisions within the "Grace movement" that I naively did not expect to find at first. Yet there they are...some are necessary divisions over irreconcilable doctrinal differences while others (I won't yet say which) strike me as pointless time-wasters. And there are still others which I find to be glaring issues which never, ever seem to get on the radar of the Grace movement as a whole; things most folks see but never discuss. It troubles me, but Christ will sort it all out at the Rapture, then at the Bema.

There is one issue, though, which very, VERY few even consider thinking about. I'm one of them. This...suspicion I have (I can't call it a belief because I can't 100% prove it) will likely get me banned from any fellowship I belonged to; in fact it would very likely preclude it. Without beating around the bush further, I'll just spill it and see who replies:

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled. By "all," I mean ALL of them...not just the sign gifts, which goes without saying as they were for unbelieving Israel's conviction, but the ministerial gifts claimed by thousands throughout the centuries since. I believe this is possible for a few Scriptural reasons as well as for a few real-world practical ones but, naturally, to even broach the subject in most places would be enough to get you shunned if not officially disfellowshipped.

Anyone else think the way I do? Again, I'm not totally convinced of it but...I wonder. This suspicion is not new to me as a MAD but goes way back to my loosey-goosey campus ministry beginnings and my later indie-fundie Baptist days...so I've been chewing it over for a loooong time. But if my suspicion is true, man oh man would it explain A LOT.

I welcome any and all thoughts, rebukes and accusations of heresy.

Good post. Food for thought my friend.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'll take that even further as is.

Many who do hold to that exactly as you wrote it - that all the gifts have ceased - will then assert things from everyday circumstances they believe God had something to do with.

You yourself have done that yourself, on here, on occasion, lol

By the time of Paul's latter letters he is talking "if a man desire the office of..." 1 Tm. 3:1.

What this issue really boils down to is how each person examines it.

Meaning, are they even doing that examining soundly?

What principles might determine that?

Belief, and its close cousins, learned, and concluded beliefs, play a strong role in the mis-understanding of all this.

Was "that which is perfect...come" that "that which is in part" was "done away" - 1 Cor. 13:10?

It depends not only on where one looks for an answer, but how one looks, and what one thinks one is looking at.

Very few are as objective about a thing as they would like to think.

One clue - how easily they will shut others out when they encounter what challenges their assertions - to where they take personal offence.

One has to ever be willing to look at what another is asserting no matter how much one disagrees with what it can just as often only appear to be asserting.

I was there. I know.

The first time I heard the Cessasionist view, I was shocked by it.

Fortunately, the KJVO-A9D person I first heard it from knew all its ins and out like few I have ever encountered, heard, or read to this very day.

And I am not one easily impressed by the few who most would conclude really profound.

Later, as this sense of shift in my Paradigm ceased to be at the forefront of my awareness, and I went back to my day to day, I began to note inconsistencies in my newly adopted view - what was obviously still a holdover from beliefs I had obviously held prior to that shocking moment.

Later, I found I was not alone in this. That this kind of a realization that there was an inconsistency between the supposed conclusion the professed practice of the hermeneutic had resulted in and its actual application in one's examining of their day to day as to where and how God was working, had quietly been taking place in the inner man of others for years... until Jordan made an issue of it at a conference, got in trouble for doing so, but found that others had been coming to a similar day to day understanding, but had been quiet about it for the anathema stink bomb it threatened to unleash against them from the more commonly held status quo belief, despite the obvious inconsistency in their hermeneutic it made so obvious to all but to the most legalistic, set in their ways "you're being divisive" nonsense they right off accuse one of.

The "that's not for us!!!" crowd.

Who have never gotten to what they assert - "well, see, the mystery is the key to peace among the brethren."

So long as it is "their" version of what's what, and how God does, or does not work, and all the rest of their own little club's malarkey...

Does God work outside of His Word in the inward man at all?

I hold that He does not. Many more do as well.

But even within our own ranks, it does not appear many have really sat down and examined the actual consistency of their belief in this.

And that's people who hold the view that, no, He does not work outside of His Word in you that believe.

In the end, the best position is just to remain fascinated about it all.

But not only about it all, but also, about what principles might help one understand how to "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves...," 2 Cor. 13:5, as to this and all the other issues that only being A9D ever keeps so fascinating...

As if a kind of an "Alice in the Looking Glass" effect is built into this "manifold wisdom of God in a Mystery..."

What church or denomination are you affiliated with, if I might ask?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Musterion,

You are heretic because you dishonor Jesus' command of "if you love Me, keep My commands" and push disgraceful doctrine of "your works cannot save you".

And claiming to be true and saved Christian.

You are not a "Child of God." You have no "Spiritual Discernment." As
you've let it be known, you ONLY believe in the books of Matthew, Mark
and Luke. You reject the rest of the Bible. You despise The Apostle Paul
and called him an "anti-Christ."

You're an enemy of the Grace Message. You believe that your "good works"
will help you get into Heaven. Finally, you've said yourself, you don't know
if your saved?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It's funny you should quote that since it condemns Meshak and every other worker who trusts in his own obedience. It speaks of the hypocrisy of Israel and their obedience to the law, and the EXTERNAL practices of "righteousness". Oh what sacrifices they make in order to earn their salvation. :nono:



Meshak won't accept His sacrifice and spits on His mercy. She rejects the GIFT of salvation. In the ages to come, Meshak will be among those who boasted in their own righteousness, and our Lord will say, "I never knew you."

Eph. 2:4-8
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Amen

 

[musterion]

ll take that even further as is.

Many who do hold to that exactly as you wrote it - that all the gifts have ceased - will then assert things from everyday circumstances they believe God had something to do with.

You yourself have done that yourself, on here, on occasion, lol

Yes you have seen me do that, and you'll continue to.

Why are you conflating the Israel-focused sign gifts with the Father's involvement (as He choose to manifest it, or not) in the earthly lives of His children here and now under grace?

Do we find in Paul's final letters -- written after the point we agree the signs and wonders vanished -- that prayer for mundane matters is exemplified? Ruled out? Not mentioned at all? Make that your starting point.

I know Stam's argument that in Philippians, God did not guarantee us tangible answers, only peace. True...but Stam never held (afaik) that the Father won't answer ANY prayer of need at all. I'm pretty sure he believed the opposite.

I also know Jordan's argument, which amounts to "God does not answer any such prayer today so don't bother asking Him."

You seem to be nearer Jordan but you tell me: where exactly do you fall on that spectrum?

 

[Tambora]

You seem to be nearer Jordan but you tell me: where exactly do you fall on that spectrum?

As for myself, I learn more towards Jordan's view.

I don't know of a single Christian today that has all their prayers answered. In fact, I would go as far as to say that hardly any of their prayers are answered.

God's grace is sufficient.

 

[musterion]

As for myself, I learn more towards Jordan's view.

I don't know of a single Christian today that has all their prayers answered. In fact, I would go as far as to say that hardly any of their prayers are answered.

God's grace is sufficient.

I love you, sis, but that "all" is not fair. I have never said nor implied that ALL prayers are answered as we'd like. There is no guarantee beyond Phil 4:19...HOW God meets all our needs is up to Him, but He's given no guarantee that He'll answer all our prayers. He knows best, we do not. Still, both I and my wife have seen indisputably specific answers to very specific prayers.

But according to some who've declared that God just doesn't work that way under grace, what that actually must mean is,

(a) we've deluded ourselves by attributing to God nothing more than the usual course of this world...fortune and misfortune...some things work out, some things don't, for atheists as well as believers. It's all random. That some things we prayed about did appear to get answered is mere coincidence that God had nothing to do with.

or

(b) Satan somehow heard and answered those prayers (many of which unspoken) in order to somehow make God look bad when we give Him thanks and glory.

I can't think of a third option but of the three, I find it much easier and more biblical to simply say "God does answer prayer, if and when He finds it best for us to do so." I have not and will not go beyond that position, nor will I back off from it.

 

[Tambora]

I love you, sis, but that "all" is not fair.

Accurate.

I have never said nor implied that ALL prayers are answered as we'd like. There is no guarantee according to Paul beyond Phil 4:19...HOW God meets all our needs is up to Him, and He's given no guarantee that He'll answer all our prayers. He knows best, we do not. Still, both I and my wife have seen indisputably specific answers to very specific prayers.

It was not my intent to imply that you said ALL prayers are answered.

I'm just pointing out the obvious observation --- that most prayers go unanswered (excluding that "no" is an answer).
And I'm talking about well-meaning, good intent prayers.

I can't think of a third option but of the three, I find it much easier and more biblical to simply say "God does answer prayer, if and when He finds it best to do so."

I don't know of anyone that disputes that.

 

[musterion]

It was not my intent to imply that you said ALL prayers are answered.

Understood.

I'm just pointing out the obvious observation --- that most prayers go unanswered (excluding that "no" is an answer).
And I'm talking about well-meaning, good intent prayers.

I agree that many are not answered and if they're not, that's to our benefit. Also, the answer to our prayers may be given BUT in God's infinite wisdom and so distantly removed from our time or prayer(s) that we may not recognize that He actually did answer what we prayed for...but He did. Fair enough?

I don't know of anyone that disputes that.

From what I've read, that's what Jordan's position boils down to. The story is told of someone in his church who lost his job and requested prayer. Jordan's response, the story goes, was something like "God isn't an employment agency." Now I don't know about you, but if that story is true the takeaway I would get from that is, "Why are you asking us to waste our time and God's time with your foolish request?" Again, IF the story is true.

Meanwhile, Paul wrote, "Be careful for nothing, but in everything -- by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving -- let your requests be made known unto God."

 

[Totton Linnet]

What is wrong

What is wrong I say is that we look at the church in it's present state and suppose that is way it should be. Without going down the "perfect has come" route I would ask you to imagine if you could be transported 700 years to the 14th century and pop into your local parish church.

Is there any resemblance at all to Paul's assembly there? the gospel light has all but been extinguished, all is ceremony, chantings and ritual, incense and candlewax hangs heavy in the air...the person conducting the meeting is prolly not even saved.

We've come a long way since the reformation....

But I personally will never be satisfied until I see the FULL re-establishment of the apostolic church and traditions.

When people look around and see that the assembly today is not as the assembly was in the NT they make up excuses for it, those excuses harden into doctrines.

The same rule applies to whether we should expect that God will answer prayers....I am not saying all my prayers are answered, nor condemning anybody that their prayers are not answered.

I am saying ... mebbe there's a reason, mebbe things as they are now are not as they ought to be. Mebbe there is a place that the church could get to where a different situation avails.

 

[musterion]

But I personally will never be satisfied until I see the FULL re-establishment of the apostolic church and traditions.

Tot, Christ has made that available to us now, in the revelations He gave to and through the apostle Paul. He expects us to abide by them, and only by them.

If you're longing for a re-establishment of signs and wonders, the next scheduled stop on that train is 2 Thess 2:9-10 and Rev 13:14.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Tambora]

Understood.

I agree that many are not answered and if they're not, that's to our benefit. Also, the answer to our prayers may be given BUT in God's infinite wisdom and so distantly removed from our time or prayer(s) that we may not recognize that He actually did answer what we prayed for...but He did. Fair enough?

From what I've read, that's what Jordan's position boils down to. The story is told of someone in his church who lost his job and requested prayer. Jordan's response, the story goes, was something like "God isn't an employment agency." Now I don't know about you, but if that story is true the takeaway I would get from that is, "Why are you asking us to waste our time and God's time with your foolish request?" Again, IF the story is true.

Meanwhile, Paul wrote, "Be careful for nothing, but in everything -- by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving -- let your requests be made known unto God."

Oh, I get your drift. But observation tells us that MOST prayers are not answered.
I have said thousands of prayers, and the vast majority of them have gone unanswered. And the ones that I think might have been answered can be racked up to coincidence.

In fact, we are told that we groan in these bodies until the resurrection or rapture of our bodies.
Believers and non-believers alike can be said to experience an answered prayer, so I don't believe any believer has an upper hand on health, safety, etc.
We are all in the same boat as far as the troubles of this world are concerned.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Tot, Christ has made that available to us now, in the revelations He gave to and through the apostle Paul. He expects us to abide by them, and only by them.

If you're longing for a re-establishment of signs and wonders, the next scheduled stop on that train is 2 Thess 2:9-10 and Rev 13:14.

Be careful what you wish for.

I thought it was you who were concerned about those things re this thread....I am more concerned with an assembly which is able to make manifest the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

It is the church which has allowed the devil to come in like a flood into our towns and cities and nation....God was always able to do works of power.

 

[Totton Linnet]

...the revelation he gave to Paul for us is that we should earnestly covet the gifts