Theology Club: I'm a heretic (probably...you tell me)

[musterion]

Oh, I get your drift. But observation tells us that MOST prayers are not answered.

From our point of view? I won't argue it. Never have.

I have said thousands of prayers...And the ones that I think might have been answered can be racked up to coincidence.

Why? If He invites you to make your petitions known to Him in everything, and if you're His daughter...why chalk it all up to coincidence? That's a form of fatalism, beloved, and does not honor our Father (keep reading to see why I say that).

In fact, we are told that we groan in these bodies until the resurrection or rapture of our bodies.

Yep.

Believers and non-believers alike can be said to experience an answered prayer, so I don't believe any believer has an upper hand on health, safety, etc.

I disagree, partly. Believers who really are believers -- those who are in Christ via Paul's Gospel -- have free access before God. We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies NOW. God hears us -- nothing stands between He and we except our own lack of trust or lack of knowledge.

Does that give us guaranteed answers? No...but we ARE guaranteed He will meet all our needs. What WE think and what HE knows our needs are is beside the point...no one besides those in Christ can claim what we've been freely given.

We are all in the same boat as far as the troubles of this world are concerned.

100% agreed, but ours work toward our ultimate good and, again, we have access to the Father in the Son. They do not. That access does not equal every petition being answers as we'd like, but it does mean we're invited to make those petitions "in everything" because He hears us and is listening and, if He chooses, He will answer.

HE WANTS US TO ASK! HE INVITES US TO ASK! AND WHEN WE SEE HIS ANSWER, DON'T WRITE IT OFF AS COINCIDENCE!

Re: fatalism

Only a few years ago, when a mix of circumstances, sin, depression and ignorance led me entirely on my own to conclude (I later learned) as Jordan has, I decided there was NO POINT in praying. So I didn't. At all. Such a grievous, needless, selfish, bratty error that I fell into, I regret it to this day. But by His grace, I came to realize, and rest upon, the fact that God IS my Father...and it took me being a father myself to slowly learn what that means. He treats me infinitely better than I could treat my own daughters, which if I say so is pretty good. I'm starting to think that's why I have girls and not the boy I wanted...I've got to have a softer touch with them than I know I'd have with a boy. Yet God's touch is even softer with me, even when I'm being trained. Hard to put this into words...but do you know what I mean?

The point is, God cannot lie. So how can I not pray to Him as He invites me to? How can I expect Him to never answer when He invites me to make every need known to Him? What kind of father would I be if I did that to my girls?

That ain't our Father, sis!

 

[musterion]

...the revelation he gave to Paul for us is that we should earnestly covet the gifts

Are you sure that revelation is "for us" in the sense of "to us"? During the general timeframe in which he wrote that, Paul also shaved his head and took a Jewish vow, and made sure to preach to Jews before he preached to heathens like us.

Do these facts mean nothing to you?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled.

Do you think that the work of an evangelist was just temporary? Do you also think that the ministry spoken of here was just temporary?:

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor.5:18-19).​

 

[Tambora]

If He invites you to make your petitions known to Him in everything, and if you're His daughter...why chalk it all up to coincidence?

Because I have no proof one way or the other.
Was it God that answered, or was it just the natural course? How could one know for sure?

Does that give us guaranteed answers? No.

Agreed.

..but we ARE guaranteed He will meet all our needs.

Then why would we even need to ask?

What WE think and what HE knows our needs are is beside the point...no one besides those in Christ can claim what we've been freely given.

Healing, prosperity, etc, happens to the just and the unjust alike.
Neither the lack of or the fullness of, would be proof of anyone being a Christian.

DON'T WRITE IT OFF AS COINCIDENCE!

How do you tell the difference?
Especially since the best you can offer anyone that prays is that they might have it answered and they might not.

Re: fatalism

It is not fatalism to realize that God's grace is sufficient, despite any hardships that befall me.

 

[Clete]

I've been a MAD for going on 10 years. In that time, I've met (as I'm sure many of you have) or communicated with several "names" within the movement, some bigger, some smaller, but still "names." It soon became apparent that for whatever reason - the flesh, I suppose - there were many unexpected divisions within the "Grace movement" that I naively did not expect to find at first. Yet there they are...some are necessary divisions over irreconcilable doctrinal differences while others (I won't yet say which) strike me as pointless time-wasters. And there are still others which I find to be glaring issues which never, ever seem to get on the radar of the Grace movement as a whole; things most folks see but never discuss. It troubles me, but Christ will sort it all out at the Rapture, then at the Bema.

There is one issue, though, which very, VERY few even consider thinking about. I'm one of them. This...suspicion I have (I can't call it a belief because I can't 100% prove it) will likely get me banned from any fellowship I belonged to; in fact it would very likely preclude it. Without beating around the bush further, I'll just spill it and see who replies:

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled. By "all," I mean ALL of them...not just the sign gifts, which goes without saying as they were for unbelieving Israel's conviction, but the ministerial gifts claimed by thousands throughout the centuries since. I believe this is possible for a few Scriptural reasons as well as for a few real-world practical ones but, naturally, to even broach the subject in most places would be enough to get you shunned if not officially disfellowshipped.

Anyone else think the way I do? Again, I'm not totally convinced of it but...I wonder. This suspicion is not new to me as a MAD but goes way back to my loosey-goosey campus ministry beginnings and my later indie-fundie Baptist days...so I've been chewing it over for a loooong time. But if my suspicion is true, man oh man would it explain A LOT.

I welcome any and all thoughts, rebukes and accusations of heresy.

This had never occurred to me before. Its an interesting hypothesis.
I've only read the first twenty posts or so, so forgive me if this has already been gone over....

Assume you're right for a moment. What should those who call themselves "pastor" do, reject the title? If so, what would you suggest they call themselves?

I can't figure out how to word those questions without it sounding sarcastic. I don't intend sarcasm, I'm really asking. In other words, I suppose I'm asking what difference it would make if you're right except in what the leaders of congregations call themselves? Isn't a rose by any other name still a rose?

If you have already answered a similar question just point me to the post and I'll take a look. Thanks!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Danoh]

Good points, Tam; couldn't agree with you more.

Musterion, as for the remark Jordan supposedly made about "the employment agency," I recall him having said that during a study now found on YouTube somewhere.

Meaning, it was said within the scope and context of all he had been laying out laid out previous to that.

As he is known for doing a study that sometimes takes two or three years, you might want to take all that in over your own understanding before rendering your conclusion.

Besides, the A9D Hermeneutic is what allows one to see these kinds of things - when consistently applied.

Consider that "well I don't agree with this" that, the other, is not the application of the Hermeneutic.

And that neither is "that makes sense" or "does not make sense to me."

We of A9D are to examine what we believe according to the standard that resulted in the A9D to begin with.

That is what Tam is doing in this case, to some extent, for example, whether or not she is aware that she is applying it.

All she has to do now, is pause, and ask herself what kinds of evaluations she is making as she considers this issue and she will find herself reporting back here that, yeah, a lot of what she was doing - was looking at things through the, if not in light of, some aspect of the A9D.

The thing to then do is to ask 'now how might I sharpen my use of the A9D even further? Am I violating its distinctions in anyway?'

When I began to ask those kinds of questions years ago, I began to find I was still relying somewhat on Israel's "the Jews require a sign," walk by "sight" principle given them by God through Moses (and even further back then Moses), to how I "discerned" "the Spirit's leading" "God doing" this, that, the other outside of His Word rightly divided in light of the full revelation of the Mystery in completed, written form.

I would then return to the A9D Hermeneutic as the magnifying glass I asserted it supposedly is.

Always, I have found that we can't go wrong when we continue to return to it.

Asserting we rely on it is not enough. We constantly have to ask ourselves what exactly is said A9D Hermeneutic and are we actually being consistent in its application.

To be on the right track is to seek to rely on the overall perspective that the A9D Hermeneutic is meant to allow the study of the relevant passages through.

One then applies the resulting overall perspective that allows, to the study of question one seeks an answer to.

This why the better A9D studies will always contrast between how things worked in Israel's aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose and how they work in the Body's.

Even some within the camp will often miss the actual intent of that; lamenting "why are we always rightly dividing?"

While others only get from this important practice a "know it all" shut anyone down who even says hello - with that regrettable novice's in your face assertion - "that's not for us!!!"

This why I often begin a thing with "Consider that" this, that the other. Out my determined awareness that if I am not careful, I just might end up where the first person who ever said those words to me, was ever stuck in with anyone and everyone who so much as said hello to them...

In this, I often appear not to give answer.

True.

That's because I am attempting to help the person focus more on how to look at a thing, more than just simply looking at it.

Because when I was in their shoes, all I ever heard were statements.

What the person who wants to continue to grow needs, is help with how to look at things: what questions one might ask of a thing itself, as one attempts to study it out.

Otherwise, all we have is endless back and forth disagreement rather than true, A9D exploring and sharing of explorations and findings.

In this, for now I'll side with Jordan and Tam on this one.

I'd studied it out long before I heard the man make that remark, and - lol - others along that same, similar, A9D line of thought.

My apology, Must, if I offended you, brother, Eph. 4:16.

"Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things," through the "rightly dividing" of the Word of Truth...the word of God which effectually worketh also in you that believe... Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:" 2 Tim.2:7, 15; 1 Thess. 2:13, Col. 2:26.

 

[patrick jane]

Colossians 2:18 KJV - Colossians 2:19 KJV -

 

[Danoh]

Colossians 2:18 KJV - Colossians 2:19 KJV -

I wanna be like you when I grow up; short, to the point, posts

When I agree with them, lol

 

[patrick jane]

Oh, I get your drift. But observation tells us that MOST prayers are not answered.
I have said thousands of prayers, and the vast majority of them have gone unanswered. And the ones that I think might have been answered can be racked up to coincidence.

In fact, we are told that we groan in these bodies until the resurrection or rapture of our bodies.
Believers and non-believers alike can be said to experience an answered prayer, so I don't believe any believer has an upper hand on health, safety, etc.
We are all in the same boat as far as the troubles of this world are concerned.

I have seen that some prayers are answered in different ways than we prayed for at first, yet God's Perfect Will IS done. it may take a decade or longer for certain prayers to be answered as you see them. i look for related connections and see prayer as very important.

it could be that i'm looking for connections and thus seeing them where it really is simply coincidence, but i have faith in prayer and i see it working. then again, i don't pray for things that have instant results or seek immediate confirmation.

maybe i pray safely, so i never know for sure if it was answered; those are just thoughts of doubt. i know God hears and answers our prayers because i have seen prayer in my own life effecting, and in other people's lives; testimony.

Prayer should be our first response, not our last resort -

Romans 8:24-25 KJV - Romans 8:26 KJV - Romans 8:27 KJV -

Romans 8:28 KJV -

 

[musterion]

Because I have no proof one way or the other.
Was it God that answered, or was it just the natural course? How could one know for sure?

Faith that God doesn't lie and doesn't jerk us around. He's not going to ask us to do something (make petitions and requests with thanksgiving) when He has no intention of ever answering any of them in a way that we can KNOW it's from Him. I cannot believe that He's pleased when we chalk up anything that happens to us -- good or bad -- as simply the results of time and circumstance with never any interest or involvement on His part. That's more like remote, indifferent Allah than the loving Father God of the Bible.

Then why would we even need to ask?

To build your faith when you do see Him answer things that, worldly speaking, HAD to be of and from Him. I've seen that myself, and it took seeing it a few times before I quit questioning "Is this real, or just chance?"

Healing, prosperity, etc, happens to the just and the unjust alike.

Sometimes.

Neither the lack of or the fullness of, would be proof of anyone being a Christian.

Not talking about anything proving or disproving someone as a Christian. Rain does fall on just and unjust alike. Always has. Yet we in Christ, alone, are today encouraged to make petition to Him, and we alone are promised that He'll meet all our needs.

How do you tell the difference? Especially since the best you can offer anyone that prays is that they might have it answered and they might not.

Simple.

He is your Father.

Perhaps He uses "mundane" means to meet our needs and to answer our requests (which seems the usual), or He does something that is unquestionably His doing. I've seen both, and I can expect both because He has invited me to appeal to Him. And sometimes we see no answer.

But writing off anything that occurs as coincidence or chance isn't giving Him the benefit of the doubt on this. It's actually disbelief in what He has said, if I may be blunt. It's no different than seeing no answer and saying He won't answer (we cannot know that). I can say that because I've been there. For a time I flat REFUSED to talk to Him, and I blush with shame as I type that. Such waste.

It is not fatalism to realize that God's grace is sufficient, despite any hardships that befall me.

No, that's not. But it is fatalism to not pray to Him when He's lovingly invited you to do so, instead relying on apparent circumstance as proof of nothing more than an atheist or a cow-worshiping heathen might claim. It is fatalism to dismiss anything that happens to you, His blood-bought daughter, as not from His hand for your ultimate good...especially if/when you've asked.

It is none of my business but it looks like something has kept you unwilling to trust Him on this, as I once did not. I don't know if someone's vain philosophy has captivated you on this but PLEASE believe me: you're cheating yourself. Only bitterness and misery can result.

He said what He said. You have nothing to lose. We're His kids, but we'll believe Him or we won't. Step out in faith before His Throne, because that's where you already are.

 

[musterion]

Assume you're right for a moment. What should those who call themselves "pastor" do, reject the title? If so, what would you suggest they call themselves?

Great question.

Paul told Timothy that any man who DESIRED to fill such a purpose in the Body needs to meet strict qualifications. He said nothing about such a one being gifted by God to do it. So just to clarify: I did not say there is no place for pastors, teachers, etc, within the Body today. I said I am unconvinced the gifting for such is still in operation at this time.

So if a man is qualified per Paul's job description, and desires it, then he's qualified. If he doesn't, he's not. But there's no miraculous "call of God" gifting on him, as is often stated or implied. I can't buy it. Far too many ignorant, bad and outright false teachers claim that gift, so there's a problem somewhere. That's why I'm largely persuaded it is no longer true.

Besides........why would Paul give that list of requirements to fill a role for those who (presumably) are gifted to fill that role? They'd miraculously meet those reqs, making the reqs moot. That's why I lean toward the "service gifts" being disregarded as just as much a relic of the transitional period as water baptisms.

I can't figure out how to word those questions without it sounding sarcastic. I don't intend sarcasm, I'm really asking.

I caught not a whiff of sarcasm, promise.

In other words, I suppose I'm asking what difference it would make if you're right except in what the leaders of congregations call themselves? Isn't a rose by any other name still a rose?

They're still pastors/teachers/whatever IF they're qualified per Paul's requirements. If he should try to excuse any erroneous teaching or moral failure by saying "I'm called of God!" or "I have the gift, you don't!" I'd reject him as false and find another church. God does not cause confusion among us, which would be exactly what he's claiming God did through him (but Paul already covered that in his list).

Great questions, Clete.

 

[Danoh]

The question ever remains - was the A9D Hermeneutic not only applied to any question, but both soundly, and consistently?

Which then begs the questions "what would constitute 'sound' ?" And "what would constitute having been 'consistent' ?"

I doubt that merely asserting we believe a thing is so, or is not, would qualify.

But, at least this question is being asked.

At the same time, reviving this question - and the questions it in turn begs the asking of - is hopefully some sort of progress forward from the same old same old some insist on dragging on in post after post after post, as if this forum is for nothing else other than the ever endless, one more need of some to prove others wrong, on the one hand, while on the other, as if there is nothing worth exploring as to how we each understand a thing, if not also, a not more edifying means of investing what time we invest together on here...

Note how an actually relevant thread or post will tend to bring out those who often do not bother posting.

Those of you out there of (especially of A9D; I'm sure I'm not alone in saying we'd love to here your views) who normally do not post; how's about "some sign" from you that these are the kinds of questions you'd rather see explored on here, in contrast to the constant "you're an idiot" of some.

Just a thought. The best to you all out there, regardless.

 

[Tambora]

My answer always lines up with "Is grace sufficient?". My answer is always yes.
And if grace is indeed sufficient, then NOTHING else is needed. Not even prayer.

In no way does that mean that I don't think prayer can be beneficial or that it should be avoided.

 

[Danoh]

My answer always lines up with "Is grace sufficient?". My answer is always yes.
And if grace is indeed sufficient, then NOTHING else is needed. Not even prayer.

In no way does that mean that I don't think prayer can be beneficial or that it should be avoided.

Yep!

And...once more, I've been proven a long wind by the simple words of a worthy post - when will I learn that less yada, is more.

:bang: and :rotfl:

 

[musterion]

Musterion, as for the remark Jordan supposedly made about "the employment agency," I recall him having said that during a study now found on YouTube somewhere.

Meaning, it was said within the scope and context of all he had been laying out laid out previous to that.

This is from http://www.bereanworkman.com/grace/alternative/prayer.htm, an article by Jordan:

Prayer is often used as a way to get financial or material gain. Surprisingly even grace believers can be found clinging to this idea. A passage we all could take more to heart is 1 Timothy 6:6-8.

(1 Timothy 6:6-8 KJV) But godliness with contentment is great gain. {7} For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. {8} And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.​

Read those verses again, will you, and ask yourself: Am I truly content with what I have while I am asking for more material things at the same time? Can material things bring contentment?

This is as close as he gets in this article to addressing the point of bringing temporal requests of need to our Father.

Notice how he phrases this part, in blue above? That's dishonest. It's dismissive. A straw man. When a man loses his job and his means to provide for his family suddenly VANISHES, is his crying out to God simply "a way to get financial or material gain"? Is losing his job simply a lack of contentment with what he has? Yes, God will provide and we're not to worry, but that's beside the point here. The implications of Jordan's teaching on this are disgusting; he's subtly implying it's WRONG to pray for such needs.

And when he does get to Phil 4, he says this about prayer and supplication of requests:

"But in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your request be made known unto God:" We are invited to enjoy intimacy of fellowship with God as we express to him the matters of our heart.

Really? Paul was simply speaking about "enjoying intimacy of fellowship with God"? Jordan dodged Paul's point because his mind, evidently, is made up that God does not answer prayers for our circumstances in this world.

Also notice that same issue goes unaddressed in this article:

http://understandgrace.com/the-mystery-of-prayer/

In both of the articles I provided, Jordan does not address the question, DOES GOD ANSWER HIS CHILDREN'S PRAYERS FOR SPECIFIC MATERIAL NEEDS? You know why he doesn't address that? I think I do.

Do us both a favor. Don't tell me I'm reading someone wrong, taking them out of context or need to go back and study them out further. If you think I'm wrong, tell me why, point blank, short and sweet. Don't dilly-dally. Get to the point, please.

 

[Danoh]

Musterion, you are taking him wrong, and out of context.

You are relying on a few words that someone obviously transcribed out of what is equally obvious based on a much more in depth study.

What you are doing is reacting to that much because it does not fit your own understanding.

And that is not the A9D approach. It simply is not.

Consistently applying it requires getting back in Scripture and studying any issue out in depth.

Fact is, it is plain to me that those "contentment" remarks are obviously abased on other, Pauline, and thus, A9D based passages.

Lol - at least those articles, as limited as to all they are obviously based on that was left out, based their assertion on some passages. All you are doing is beating the air with "well I want my blessing!"

Explore the thing already - lay out the passages it is your understanding assert otherwise. Let's look at them together.

By the way, obviously you are feeling better from that illness you related in another. I rejoice with you in that with you, brother!

Lol, I did pray to the Father you be strengthened by His Spirit in your inward man.

Question is, who was that meant to benefit and how?

Depends on what we each understand - after a thorough, A9D based study - of what the Apostle Paul meant by "discerning the Lord's Body."

While I'm at it, brother, don't be so serious - Christ died for us that we might live in Him - rejoice in this you perceive as some sort of an affliction on your belief - and again I say, Rejoice!

"Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong," 2 Cor. 12:10

Philippians 4:

11. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

You want it on, well its on - bring on the passages you believe relevant - that we each might comfort one another as to this important issue by the mutual faith both of you and of me.

Otherwise, simply agree with me, lol

 

[musterion]

Musterion, you are taking him wrong, and out of context.

You are relying on a few words that someone obviously transcribed out of what is equally obvious based on a much more in depth study.

You have no evidence either article is mistranscribed, so your accusation is unwarranted. In fact, the second one -- did you even notice? -- is linked directly from Grace Impact, Jordan's own website.

You are not dealing honestly here and I don't do well with the dishonest. Your repeated "lol" isn't helping. It's best we take a break.

Oh, just noticed this...

All you are doing is beating the air with "well I want my blessing!"

We're done.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Are you sure that revelation is "for us" in the sense of "to us"? During the general timeframe in which he wrote that, Paul also shaved his head and took a Jewish vow, and made sure to preach to Jews before he preached to heathens like us.

Do these facts mean nothing to you?

Paul never instructed us to shave our heads or take a Jewish vow, I believe to the Jews first still applies

...but what else shall we say is not directed to us? perhaps "but I show you a more hexcellent way" is not for us...that is to do a meshak

Ok I'll butte out

 

[way 2 go]

I'm MAD and it just seems to me that the necessity for the gifts has passed, therefore the gifts themselves have faded away.

However, I do believe God is still able to use them if He deems them necessary in a situation. But that is rare.

I agree

I believe God gives wisdom

Jas_1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

1Ti 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

:e4e:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled.

Do you think that the work of an evangelist was just temporary? Do you also think that the ministry spoken of here was just temporary?:

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor.5:18-19).​