Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

[Jerry Shugart]

So then James contradicted himself?

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

No, he did not contradict himself. What he was apeaking about in the second chapter is about what one person can know about another person's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.1:18).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], 160-161).

Now it is your turn. Tell me what James is saying at James 1:18 and what Peter meant when he spoke of being born again by the gospel.

 

[Idolater]

...Sir Robert Anderson writes, "...God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...." (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], 160-161)....

The Catholic Church teaches, I believe in complete agreement with Anderson, in Text 1861 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that, "...although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

This is to say that while we can judge objectively whether someone commits a grave moral offense, we cannot 'search the heart' like God does, so therefore we cannot judge a man's soul based only upon what he does.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#1861

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Catholic Church teaches, I believe in complete agreement with Anderson, in Text 1861 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that, "...although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

This is to say that while we can judge objectively whether someone commits a grave moral offense, we cannot 'search the heart' like God does, so therefore we cannot judge a man's soul based only upon what he does.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#1861

Rome fails to understand that believers will not come into judgment in regard to eternal life, as witnessed by His following words:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Rome fails to understand the meaning of the following words:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[Idolater]

Rome fails to understand that believers will not come into judgment in regard to eternal life, as witnessed by His following words:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Rome fails to understand the meaning of the following words:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Rome receives and teaches everything found in the scriptures, especially the very words of Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Rome receives and teaches everything found in the scriptures, especially the very words of Jesus Christ our Lord.

No, that is wrong. They deny the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

 

[Ktoyou]

I also really like "The Plot" by Bob.

Hilston (a poster here) did a critique on it, but I don't recall him pointing out any big problems that really grabbed me. There is a link to it in his signature in his posts on TOL.

EDIT: link found http://www.biblestudiesonline.info/TGF/topical/theplot.htm
Would be interesting for him to chime in here.

Hilston is also a mid-Acts-dispie btw, (I think he would agree with Bob in way more cases than not) and I wish he would write a book about it, he is brilliant on it.

The Plot was /is a good primer for getting some basic insights, but after reading it, one should seek out further study.

 

[heir]

My point in the following will be lost on you, but here goes.

1 The post of mine you are responding to is over a month old.

Yet here you are, stirring it up, a month later.

But as I have already noted, my point in saying this to you will be lost on you.

2 You are that poor at properly discerning a thing.

Partly due to your self-blinding animosity.

And partly due to your obvious double-standard (for I don't see you raising a fuss over a very old post one of your pals recently resurrected - you high-fived that one).

Again, the post of mine you are responding to is over a month old.

Get a clue.

You're a :troll: with nowhere else to go

 

[Danoh]

You're a :troll: with nowhere else to go

I said what I pointed out to you would go right past you. Sure enough, it did.

You are ever that sloppy at discerning the things that differ between things...

Further, just a few days ago, you did elsewhere with someone what you always do: you droned on about how that they are wrong - because they don't subscribe to one or another of your various Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid errors - given your consistently proven incompetence.

Yet, here you are once more, taking issue with anyone who points a thing out to you.

You're a hypocrite and an incompetent.

Plain and simple.

If anything, you're a perfect example of the kind of person the Apostle Paul had in mind, in the following...

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Have at it "heir" head.

:rotfl:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

The Jews at Jerusalem kept the law throughout the Acts period (see Acts 21: 20-26). Many people ask, since Paul was teaching the churches which he founded that they are no longer under the law, then why did the Jews in the Jerusalem church continue to keep the law?

When Paul went to Jerusalem at Acts 21 he too kept the law, even going so far as to make offerings required under the law (Acts21:26). I believe the following words of Paul explain his actions at Acts 21: 26:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" (1 Cor. 9: 20).​

I believe that it was of the will of God for the Jerusalem church to remain under the law, and His reason would be so that He might gain those who were under the law. But the believing Jews like Peter knew that his salvation was on the principle of grace (Acts 15:11).

That last paragraph is just one more example of your reading into a thing out of your ever obvious failure to have properly understood the whole of a thing.

Put away your endless books "about" and get IN and STAY IN THE BOOK.

Fact is that the Jerusalem assembly continued too keep the Law because the Law is Israel's identity "in the sight of the nations."

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; FOR THIS IS YOUR WISDOM AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING IN THE SIGHT OF THE NATIONS, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of THE LORD's HOUSE shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, TO THE HOUSE OF THE GOD OF JACOB; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: FOR OUT OF ZION SHALL GO FORTH THE LAW, AND THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

From Jerusalem?

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM.

24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned TO JERUSALEM with great joy: 24:53 And were continually in THE TEMPLE, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in THE TEMPLE, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into THE TEMPLE at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; AND THEY ARE ALL ZEALOUS OF THE LAW: 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, AND KEEPEST THE LAW.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest IN THE LAW, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 AND KNOWEST HIS WILL, and approvest the things that are more excellent, BEING INSTRUCTED OIT OF THE LAW; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF THOU KEEP THE LAW: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that UNTO THEM were committed THE ORACLES OF GOD.

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; TO WHOM PERTAINETH the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of THE LAW, AND THE SERVICE OF GOD, and the promises;

But go right ahead and read why James said or did a thing into why Paul did.

:chuckle:

Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That last paragraph is just one more example of your reading into a thing out of your ever obvious failure to have properly understood the whole of a thing.

Put away your endless books "about" and get IN and STAY IN THE BOOK.

Fact is that the Jerusalem assembly continued too keep the Law because the Law is Israel's identity "in the sight of the nations."

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; FOR THIS IS YOUR WISDOM AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING IN THE SIGHT OF THE NATIONS, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

You prove that you don't even understand the most elemementary things about this subject. The fact of the matter is that by Acts 21 national Israel had been temporarily set aside from her previous position as being "a special people unto the LORD, above all people who are on the face of the earth" because Paul spoke of that nation in the following way:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).​

According to your ignorance the following applied to that fallen nation at Acts 21: "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people."

One of these days you will get something right but so far no cigar!

 

[Danoh]

You prove that you don't even understand the most elemementary things about this subject. The fact of the matter is that by Acts 21 national Israel had been temporarily set aside from her previous position as being "a special people unto the LORD, above all people who are on the face of the earth" because Paul spoke of that nation in the following way:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).​

According to your ignorance the following applied to that fallen nation at Acts 21: "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people."

One of these days you will get something right but so far no cigar!

Ouch!

:rotfl:

Genesis 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

When was that to have been?

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who were these of His Own who did receive Him?

People like those the Twelve...

1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

The Lord's reply?

His mention of those coming days of Jacob's ladder.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

An understanding that continued into Early...

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Yep - Jacob's Ladder: Things pertaining to ISRAEL'S Promised, Restored Kingdom of God, one day.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Never mind what He had said to THEM about how that will...turn out...

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

When will that, now on hold with Paul, be?

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

A Sabbath days' journey, ay?

Sure, Jerry, Body members - if you say so.

:chuckle:

I'll simply post this about the ever obvious, very basis of your many errors.

For there is no reasoning with you.

Due to the following.

Perhaps someone else might benefit from it's warning.

Too late for your kind to heed it, Jerry.

Your blunder is that you have sorted out too much, too soon, and too long ago.

At the same time, it is ever obvious that your Acts 2 Dispensationalism / Acts 13 Dispensationalism Hybrid (or mix), is an even worse confusion than that of the Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid that various people on here assert is Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

The root of your error, Jerry, is exactly the same as theirs - conclusions arrived at too soon in your approach, due to said, ever obvious, poor study approach, to begin with.

Conclusions arrived at by your kind, absent of the whole of Scripture on a thing.

That is why you cannot see that those Law keeping Israelites, as an assembly of God in Matthew 16, and coming Twelve Princes over Israel's Twelve Tribes, mentioned by the Lord in Matthew 19; that God then continued the forward movement of in Early Acts, but then temporarily put on hold, Romans 9-11, just as He had planned to, was not, and is not, the Body of Christ First begun with Paul, in Acts 9, see, 1 Timothy 1, but that you, in your decades old, long set in your ever obvious incompetence, put them into, with Paul.

You're dumb, Jerry. Plain and simple.

Made so by your above mentioned decades old approach.

There is no reasoning with your kind.

Never was.

Your kind are forever reading the dumbest of things into a thing.

Well, at least in your case, Jerry, your skin is often as thick as your head.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ouch!

You go on and on and on and you never answered the fact that by the time of Acts 21 the nation of Israel had been temporarily cast aside.

I guess that you have yet read Romans 11 yet.

 

[Danoh]

You go on and on and on and you never answered the fact that by the time of Acts 21 the nation of Israel had been temporarily cast aside.

I guess that you have yet read Romans 11 yet.

No clueless one - the Believing Remnant of Israel (the Twelve and THEIR converts) were the nation the Lord had in mind, Romans 9-11, James 1, etc.

With the events of Acts 7 (which perfectly fit with Daniel 9 and Luke 13), God, temporarily turned from the Unbelieving Nation: Israel, and delayed His pending Wrath and their Believing Remnant's Post-Trib Hope once more, just as He had planned on doing, Romans 9-11.

The Body was not/ is not some sort of a last minute Replacement of that. It is a New Creature, altogether.

1st Century Jews/Israelites and Gentiles in the Body were comprised of formerly lost Jews/Israelites concluded under sin or UNcircumcision WITH the Gentiles AFTER Acts 7.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

BOTH were now HEATHEN.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

It was after that that the Body - comprised of people out of both lost groups - began.

Starting with the very first, formerly lost Jew / Israelite saved into the Body: Paul.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

But as I have already had to note once more - your decades old erroneous approach has left you so confused you cannot see this "though a man point it to you."

To be blunt, you've rendered yourself a fool no longer open to correction on this "Great Blunder of the Church" of yours.

Yours is the end result of all Hybrids.

No surprise then, that the only person agreeing with some of your nonsense on this, is the idol worshipping, Idolator.

Idolator's is a very well known Hybrid, as well: Constantine's hybrid of various pagan forms of worship into the idol worshipping RCC's ripoff "replacement" of Israel's Priesthood.

I do not envy you...your poor company.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No clueless one - the Believing Remnant of Israel (the Twelve and THEIR converts) were the nation the Lord had in mind, Romans 9-11, James 1, etc.

Why are you unable to understand that by the time Romans was written the nation of Israel had been temporarily set aside.

Evidently you haven't read the epistle to the Ephesians yet because there we read that the middle wall of partition between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers has been broken down and both groups were made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

According to your false teaching the middle wall of partition still stood between the Twelve and the Gentile believers.

You just make things up when confronted with the truth. Even though the nation of Israel was cast aside you say that the Twelve still belonged to that nation. Next you will be teaching that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works of one kind or another despite the fact that the believers under the law were saved by grace through faith!

 

[Danoh]

Why are you unable to understand that by the time Romans was written the nation of Israel had been temporarily set aside.

Evidently you haven't read the epistle to the Ephesians yet because there we read that the middle wall of partition between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers has been broken down and both groups were made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

According to your false teaching the middle wall of partition still stood between the Twelve and the Gentile believers.

You just make things up when confronted with the truth. Even though the nation of Israel was cast aside you say that the Twelve still belonged to that nation. Next you will be teaching that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works of one kind or another despite the fact that the believers under the law were saved by grace through faith!

:rotfl:

You really crack me up, Jerry.

I'd forgotten that your confused hybrid (or mix) also includes various of Anderson's 28er-isms, turned into the final word on a thing by you in your "books based" incompetence.

Fact is "books based expert" that all Romans was, was a written form of what Paul had been preaching about and teaching for many years.

He says so in Romans itself (in Romans 1, in Romans 15, and in Romans 16).

Put away your confused Acts 2er / Acts 13er / Acts 28er hybrid, or mix, and get in THE Book.

Romans is nothing more than a written form of things Paul had been preaching and teaching this side of Acts 9 after Israel was concluded Uncircumcision, or under sin with the Gentiles by the end of Acts 7.

At which point, God sealed Israel's Believing Remnant, concluded the rest in Unbelief, and temporarily set aside said Believing Remnant's Hope.

Acts 10 having actually been a witness of a change in the Circumcision/ Uncircumcision distinction: a change that began with the first Jew / Israelite saved - in Uncircumcision - into the Body: Paul, in Acts 9.

All of which was settled many years before Paul laid out in written form (Romans) all that he had been preaching and teaching, long before he wrote Romans...

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Result?

What God was now doing among the Gentiles via an Apostle of the Gentiles, is heard out.

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Result?

Acts 10's intended witness...

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Resulting understanding?

That their (the Believing Remnant's) Hope had been delayed...

15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Resulting conclusion?

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Result?

They were all on the same page about these things by Acts 15.

Which is why he writes of wishing peace upon both groups at the end of Galatians.

This, in the midst of a disruption of that Acts 15 peace.

Which had been disrupted by Judaizers behaving no better towards Paul's Gentile converts, than Peter himself, and even Barnabas, and so on, had behaved towards Paul's Gentile converts.

A peace between them that relies on both their following the same above rule of thumb, or principle...

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Yep - as intended by God: The Law had proven all under sin - "no difference between us and them."

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Good old Romans a decade before Paul wrote Romans.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul, would you please quit citing Romans principles in Galatians (and in all your letters prior to, and after Romans) - you're making "books based" Jerry look bad.

Jerry, Jerry, quite, contrary.

You've rendered yourself useless as a witness of these things by your confused Acts 2 / Acts 13 / Acts 28 hybrid, or mix.

Romans 5:6-8.

_____________________

Note: Peter's "no difference" there in Acts 15: 9 and Acts 15:11 is basically the assertion that both groups having been concluded under sin by the Law, that both are saved on the principle of grace.

Paul reminds Peter and company of this very principle, later, in the following...

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Idolater]

Spoiler

:rotfl:

You really crack me up, Jerry.

I'd forgotten that your confused hybrid (or mix) also includes various of Anderson's 28er-isms, turned into the final word on a thing by you in your "books based" incompetence.

Fact is "books based expert" that all Romans was, was a written form of what Paul had been preaching about and teaching for many years.

He says so in Romans itself (in Romans 1, in Romans 15, and in Romans 16).

Put away your confused Acts 2er / Acts 13er / Acts 28er hybrid, or mix, and get in THE Book.

Romans is nothing more than a written form of things Paul had been preaching and teaching this side of Acts 9 after Israel was concluded Uncircumcision, or under sin with the Gentiles by the end of Acts 7.

At which point, God sealed Israel's Believing Remnant, concluded the rest in Unbelief, and temporarily set aside said Believing Remnant's Hope.

Acts 10 having actually been a witness of a change in the Circumcision/ Uncircumcision distinction: a change that began with the first Jew / Israelite saved - in Uncircumcision - into the Body: Paul, in Acts 9.

All of which was settled many years before Paul laid out in written form (Romans) all that he had been preaching and teaching, long before he wrote Romans...

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Result?

What God was now doing among the Gentiles via an Apostle of the Gentiles, is heard out.

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Result?

Acts 10's intended witness...

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Resulting understanding?

That their (the Believing Remnant's) Hope had been delayed...

15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Resulting conclusion?

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Result?

They were all on the same page about these things by Acts 15.

Which is why he writes of wishing peace upon both groups at the end of Galatians.

This, in the midst of a disruption of that Acts 15 peace.

Which had been disrupted by Judaizers behaving no better towards Paul's Gentile converts, than Peter himself, and even Barnabas, and so on, had behaved towards Paul's Gentile converts.

A peace between them that relies on both their following the same above rule of thumb, or principle...

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Yep - as intended by God: The Law had proven all under sin - "no difference between us and them."

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Good old Romans a decade before Paul wrote Romans.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul, would you please quit citing Romans principles in Galatians (and in all your letters prior to, and after Romans) - you're making "books based" Jerry look bad.

Jerry, Jerry, quite, contrary.

You've rendered yourself useless as a witness of these things by your confused Acts 2 / Acts 13 / Acts 28 hybrid, or mix.

Romans 5:6-8.

_____________________

Note: Peter's "no difference" there in Acts 15: 9 and Acts 15:11 is basically the assertion that both groups having been concluded under sin by the Law, that both are saved on the principle of grace.

Paul reminds Peter and company of this very principle, later, in the following...

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Why does Paul counsel Corinthians on the Eucharist, in chapter 11 of his first epistle to them?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You really crack me up, Jerry.

I guess that you hope that no one noticed that you failed to address the words of Paul where he said that the middle wall of partition between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers has been broken down.

I guess you just think that those words will just disappear if you ignore them long enough!

All you prove is that you just pick and chose which passages from the Bible you will believe and which ones you will not believe.

And from your response you do not believe what Paul wrote here:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

You can run from these verses but they are not going away!

 

[Tambora]

Jerry, I'm not sure I understand why it is that you think Danoh does not believe the middle wall is broken down.

Do you think Israel's believing remnant is no longer Israel's believing remnant, but has become a part of the BOC?

 

[intojoy]

Jerry, I'm not sure I understand why it is that you think Danoh does not believe the middle wall is broken down.

Do you think Israel's believing remnant is no longer Israel's believing remnant, but has become a part of the BOC?

Jerry has gone off the flat edge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tambora]

Jerry has gone off the flat edge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nonsense.
The ice wall prevents that.