Acts 7-9
May I ask...
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Acts 7-9
That doesn't make sense.
Sometimes the righteous use their eyes to determine what is or is not of God.
God gave us five senses to determine different things.
To forsake vision in judgement is not of God.
Right, as Israel was sinning.
We can refer to a single command as a law if you wish.
But it isn't THE Law of Moses.
Wow, there's a stretch.He broke the law, and he died.
And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:10 - New King James Version
And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.www.biblegateway.com
Man got that without the command or the Law.
All, since Adam, are born with a conscience.
I disagree, as Saul was never told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
That command was to only two people.
Quit adding to scripture.Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But not based on appearances.Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:20 - New King James Version
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.www.biblegateway.com
What was it Jesus said about those who wore long robes and wide phylacteries?
Oh yeah, they shall receive greater damnation...based on Jesus' sight.
I believe it.So you don't believe Paul when he says:
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:21, Romans 3:22, Romans 3:23, Romans 3:24, Romans 3:25, Romans 3:26 - New King James Version
God’s Righteousness Through Faith - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,www.biblegateway.com
Does it sound foreign to you who doesn't believe a man can be actually righteous?
It's our righteousness now...if we obey Him.
If you aren't, try repenting of sin and crucifying the old you so you can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life !
The new you, reborn of God's seed, will be as perfect as God is perfect.
Does it bother you at all that you are judging by sight?
Paul was no longer walking in the flesh, so the Law in his members no longer had any power over him.
Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Don't I know it, after so may words from you.
Maybe you should look into that some more.
We establish the law by living it's result.
That being, pure-hearted and loving.
Yes !
In the NT, we show our separation from the world with actions of love, instead of diet or clothing.
The Law was a presage of life in Christ...very separate from the world we leave behind.
Yes, he was, and God gave him the opportunity to prove his faith with the sacrifice of Isaac.
It's not much harder than breathing.
Or is that a work too?
BTW, if I repent of sin I will be sin-free !
I am glad to see you preaching some truth !
Back to you...
See?Keep reading:
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:1, Romans 7:2, Romans 7:3, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:5, Romans 7:6 - New King James Version
Freed from the Law - Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?www.biblegateway.com
Delivered from the Law that once held him !
The Law certainly doesn't regain it's power later in the chapter.
Yep, Paul was once trying to satisfy the Law and failing: and looking for something better.He finished his thought, so he moves on, new paragraph:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:7, Romans 7:8, Romans 7:9, Romans 7:10, Romans 7:11, Romans 7:12 - New King James Version
Sin’s Advantage in the Law - What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”www.biblegateway.com
As the chapter wears on, we see the past is...in the past.
Paul has caught up to the present at the end of the chapter, finally pointing out how the flesh and the mind are two very different things.New paragraph:
Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:13, Romans 7:14, Romans 7:15, Romans 7:16, Romans 7:17, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:19, Romans 7:20, Romans 7:21, Romans 7:22, Romans 7:23, Romans 7:24, Romans 7:25 - New King James Version
Law Cannot Save from Sin - Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.www.biblegateway.com
The flesh: which he once served, and the mind: which he now serves.
I thank God for showing us that his verse 23 plaint..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."...has been answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
I also thank God for showing us the answer to Paul's verse 24 plaint..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?...has been answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Nope, as it was destroyed in Rom 6:6.
Rom 7:23 and 24 were the desperation of Paul's past.
Rom 8:2 and Rom 6:6 are the rejoicing in his present.
If you permanently repent of sin and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, you won't be so closed to the wisdom of God.
Why would a man freed from sin, and dead to the Law, still worry about the Law?
Because you do not rightly divide.
Not what I nor Jesus was talking about.
Israel was placed under the law of Moses. They were already under "the Law."
Supra.
You clearly don't see the connection between "the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" and "the Law."
Too bad.
You missed it.
When Paul speaks of the law, he is not referring to the Mosaic law, but rather, the entirety of what the law is, that being "the knowledge of good and evil."
Quit bearing false witness.
Based on Jesus' sight? or the fact that they were actually promoting unrighteousness?
Why do you want to contradict what Jesus said so badly?
Do not judge based on appearances, but judge with righteous judgement.
It does, because it's not taught by Scripture.
Jesus is the only one who was righteous.
His righteousness is imputed to us.
No, as Isaiah said, all our righteousness are as filthy rags.
Wrong.
I'm not the one reading his beliefs into the text.
You are.
I simply let scripture speak for itself.
Supra.
Quit posturing.
So you don't eat shellfish? You don't wear mixed fabrics?
Sorry, but you don't get to pick and choose which laws you want to keep.
If you keep any of the law, then you must keep THE WHOLE LAW!
Whatever that means.
The point is that God could have taken Abram in Genesis 15, and he would have still been a righeous man.
No works were required. None were needed.
It is not.
False.
Yes, it is true that you're a legalist.
See? Reading your beliefs into the text.
Take a step back, and take off your "Hoping" glasses for a moment, and just read the text for what it says.
The law has no power over those who are dead to it.
I would have thought that Paul made that clear enough for you.
Yet Paul still says:
"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."
Except for the last verse of Romans 7...
"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."
And yet, he still says that he serves the law of sin with his flesh.
How can that be if he's sinless?
Nope.
Notice the "but" there.
"With the mind I . . . serve the law of God, BUT with the flesh [I serve] the law of sin.
The word "serve" is present indicative active, and it applies to BOTH phrases, because of the conjuction "but" (gk. "de").
In Greek, present indicative active verbs describe actions that are currently being performed in the present by the subject of the sentence.
In this verse, Paul (the subject) is serving, what? With his mind, the law of God; with his flesh, the law of sin.
He's doing both, in the present (as he wrote). So your claim doesn't hold up, that he stopped serving the flesh, because he didn't.
What a convoluted reading of the text...
Try reading it in order, instead.
False.
False.
False.
The moment I repented towards God, He forgave ALL of my sins, past, present, and any sin I would commit in the future, because it's not MY righteousness He looks at, but Christ's.
That's what we're asking you.
Sometimes righteous judgement is triggered by the eyes.
Have you never read Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." ?
Or these scriptures...“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
Somebody has tricked you into believing you cannot carry out your own will..
He wasn't even the first.
Enoch and Elijah were righteous too.
Now, in the NT, all who are "in Christ" are righteous.
There is no unrighteousness in Christ, or in His Father.
1 John 1:5 says..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
That makes us righteous !
Or has mid Acts dispensationalism told you that is not true?
I hope not !
Comparatively, he was right.
As it is compared to the best kind of righteousness endowed in us by God, if we will accept Him as our Lord and God.
The unrighteous refuse to do that.
I am not an OT Jew, so why should I?
Peter showed us that no food is off the menu in Acts 10.
You are right, but thankfully Jesus only gave us two !
Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
If I was using circumcision or dietary rules or feast keeping or any of the Mosaic Laws and customs to make myself righteous, you would be right.
But those things have passed with the advent of a new testimony.
"The Law was a presage of life in Christ...very separate from the world we leave behind."
Which part of that may I elaborate on?
Agreed.
None except what we also have today.
Faith in God and ultimately, obedience to Him.
I am happy to be labeled anything you want, as long as God, and the name of Jesus Christ, are glorified.
Without repenting from sin, one is just an unbelieving sinner.
I didn't want to be that anymore.
See?
Validating my beliefs with scripture.
Was, or was not, Paul still held back by the Law?
No !
I have had my blindness cured.
That is right.
So why insist he is still in the flesh and committing sins?
Yes, but his flesh is dead !
He is now walking in the Spirit !
His Christ centered mind now rules, and not his world oriented flesh.
Where I see a difference at the end of Paul's Rom. 7 narrative, some see only the same-old-thing for Paul.
Yep, the fork in the road...so to speak.
His mind has the power to over-rule what his now dead flesh once yearned for.
You really don't see the difference between "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;"...and..."but with the flesh the law of sin." ?
Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Paul's refence to flesh is to the old man he once was...in the past...before his conversion...and repentance from sin... and rebirth from God's seed.
Before and after, as it were.
It does make sense to see it your way...when you include words Paul did NOT say.
He makes the distinction between "my mind" and his now dead "flesh" with his declaration of his present situation; serving "my mind", only referring to what he once served as a comparison.
It is a good thing he made it know before-hand, (v 5), that he wasn't in the flesh anymore...eh?
You postulate walking in both darkness and Light.
I can't agree.
Two plaints...two answers to the plaints.
I see no convolution there.
A second repentance makes the first repentance a lie to God.
Not the way to build fellowship with God.
Nearly the only times I ever write about the Law of Moses is when I, like Paul in Rom 7, point out we are dead to it.
Those still in disobedience to God are not dead to the Law.
The Law is there to show the sinful how awful they truly are, and hopefully will compel them to seek true righteousness by what ensued after the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
Rebirth from God's seed.
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way 2 go
Well-known member
Jesus wrote the book and changed the dispensation to faith and no works
so you are trying to excuse your sin and failing.
(Romans 2:23) You who boast in Law, do you dishonor God through breaking the Law?
you're not sinless
you say obedience but you mean obedience to the law
"It is permanent, until you"
"commit adultery or steal from work"
"murder"
"drug abuse or child molesting"
fail to "Helping the old lady across the street"
"Stealing from the blind"
did he repent , no
therefore
Jesus said to do all that to an unrepentant sinner
you're awful at the timeline of the bible not surprising most anti Mid Acts Dispensation are , it's part of your problem
why do you want us under the law then ?
"It is permanent, until you"
"commit adultery or steal from work"
"murder"
"drug abuse or child molesting"
fail to "Helping the old lady across the street"
"Stealing from the blind"
you're not righteous , it's counted to you , you still have sinful flesh
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
you still sin
you have already admitted to breaking the commandment by judging people on appearances , a sin
and you take pride in that sin
"Sorry your mind isn't as agile as mine."
I'm not under the law , you are.
It is permanent, until you"
"commit adultery or steal from work"
"murder"
"drug abuse or child molesting"
fail to "Helping the old lady across the street"
"Stealing from the blind"
so now you finally admit Jesus summary of the law is the whole law of Moses
which you are under
"It is permanent, until you"
there is that timeline problem again
righteousness without works
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
righteousness without works , I know you don't want it to be possible
you want to take pride in your works so you can boast
It's God 's gift to me ,you want to earn and maintain your salvation , you can't except God's gift
I'm saved by grace through faith
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
no
freed from the law yes, but that doesn't mean we don't sin
Paul is explaining we can choose to walk in the spirit but admits he still sins unlike you
(Romans 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
(Romans 7:14-17) [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent to the law that it is good. [17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Correct...sorta.
He didn't write anything, really.
But He did move things away from the Law and unto faith.
By "works" you do mean "of Moses"...right?
There is no sin in righteous judgement.
A spade is a spade...so to speak.
A man wearing a "I HATE GOD" t-shirt, is not a godly person.
I am glad you are not my judge.
Taking a hypothetical situation and using that to judge, is not wise.
I mean obedience to God.
Repent of what?
The scrip' said he did all the things Jesus listed.
Though his love of wealth may have eventually doomed him.
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "all that".
Personally, I am not in favor of any doctrine that divides brothers.
I am not a MADist.
Are not all those things a part of our new nature?
Won't those reborn of God's seed do the things God would do?
No. I don't still have sinful flesh.
That was destroyed at my "immersion" into Christ's death and burial.
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Amen to that.
Those that believe God now can have the same thing said about them.
We have already covered your judgement.
Only sinners are under the Law of Moses.
"...for by the Law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)
Jesus' summary of the Law did not include circumcision, dietary rules, travel restrictions, feast keeping sabbath keeping, and a bunch of other things.
So you are in error.
Are adulterers going to heaven?
How about murderers or thieves?
Correct, righteousness with out the works of the Law.
Or anything else but faith.
Just as Abe' was found righteous by faith, so too are we now found righteous by faith.
But liars, adulterers, and thieves, are not faithful.
My faith doesn't come-and-go with the winds of time or seasons.
Are liars faithful?
No, so telling the truth, a natural part of faithfulness, and coincidently part of the Law of Moses, is, if you want to see it that way, "earning".
Earning is a misnomer though.
More like manifesting what we are after repentance from sin and being reborn of God's seed.
Agreed, with Paul's intent.
Yes, as that is the only way Romans 7 makes sense.
If you sin, you are still under the Law.
Paul wrote..."But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Gal 5:18)
So, does the Holy Spirit lead one to tell lies?
Steal, commit adultery, covet cash, avoid charity, or kill a man?
So the real dividing line of faith-Law, is the manifestations of the Spirit.
You have misinterpreted his intent.
Or have believed somebodies lies.
Thanks be to God.
Those not "SERVING", (a scary work to some), in newness of sprit, are still under the Law.
You do realize, I hope, that Paul's narrative of his past about "sin that dwells in him" is answered in Romans 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Paul is no longer carnal.
Or in the flesh, as Rom 7:5 says..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Have the faith of Abraham in regards to the death of your old self and your rebirth from God's seed.
Walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
When did God make Gentiles clean?
Which Gentile, as they can become clean one at a time.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Nope. Acts 10:15 isn't talking about Gentiles being made clean "one at a time."
way 2 go
Well-known member
(II Timothy 3:16) Every scripture is inspired by God
Jesus gave Paul the Mid Acts Dispensation
Gal 1:11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.
Gal 1:12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
I have to do the same works that Abraham had to do in his 1st covenant to be counted righteous , none.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
judging by appearance is a sin , not righteous judgement
(John 7:24) Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
and the law
what do you think think this is
, grace ?"It is permanent, until you"
"commit adultery or steal from work"
"murder"
"drug abuse or child molesting"
fail to "Helping the old lady across the street"
"Stealing from the blind"
sin of unbelief
18] He said to Him, Which? Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, [19] honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.(Matthew 19:22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions
you're a legalist christian
they are how legalist christian maintains salvation
you still have sinful flesh until you die physically , are you in a cult ?
you have a choice everyday
(Romans 6:11-13) [11] Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. [13] Do not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but yield yourselves to God, as one alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Paul said sin dwelt with in him after he became a Christian
(Romans 7:17) But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
you're legalist christian and are under the Law of Moses
"It is permanent, until you"
Jesus' summary of the Law did include circumcision, dietary rules, travel restrictions, feast keeping sabbath keeping, and a bunch of other things.
It was Jesus giving Paul the Mid Acts Dispensation that did away with the Law for salvation
you've had all this time to show Jesus during his earthly ministry doing away with any part of the Law
and we have shown that Jesus through Paul's Mid Acts Dispensation did away with circumcision and the Law and not before
you're a confused legalist christian
(I Corinthians 6:10-11) [10] nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
you say that but you don't believe it
"It is permanent, until you"
you're a confused legalist christian
(I Corinthians 6:10-11) [10] nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I don't try to keep the law as you do
"It is permanent, until you"
(Galatians 5:16) I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
(Galatians 5:18) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law
but you're a legalist christian and have to maintain your salvation
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
no.
you have to twist scripture to maintain your view
as legalist Christians do
If you sin, you are still under the Law. that is what you believe and then you deceive yourself by pretending you don't sin
the flesh leads you to lie , you have a choice
be led by the law and try not to sin and fail and be condemned
be led by the law and pretend you don't sin and fail
"It is permanent, until you"
or
be led by the spirit
(Romans 8:1-2) [1] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [2] But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
you just listed the Law and said that's the spirit
"It is permanent, until you" is what a legalist Christian says
I understand Paul while you do not ,
if it was past tense as you suggest then Paul is saying he was never responsible for his sin ,
only understood from the perspective about his current condition at the time of writing
(Romans 7:15-17) [15] For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do. [16] If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good. [17] But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
We can use that verse to say that was the time when God annulled the unclean status of the Gentiles as a people.
But until anyone, Jew or Greek, was washed by the blood of Christ for the remission of their past sins, nobody is "clean".
I agree with scripture.
Jesus already had it, to give.
See?
He, and you, must hear and believe.
I don't see any mention of sin in John 7:24.
What I do see is that we are to judge righteously.
God gave us eyes for some righteous judgements.
Do you think faithful Abraham would have done any of those things?and the law
what do you think think this is
"It is permanent, until you"
"commit adultery or steal from work"
"murder"
"drug abuse or child molesting"
fail to "Helping the old lady across the street"
"Stealing from the blind"
I don't.
Jesus doesn't judge unbelievers, so how can it be a sin?
John 12:47..."And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
If legalist means faithful, I agree.
Can a liar, thief, or adulterer be one with Christ?
No.
Is it possible to maintain something that won't be awarded until our names are found in the book of life?
That happens at our immersion into Christ's death.
Rom 6:3-7..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No.
Are you?
Yes, we do.
He said it, after he was converted.
But it was during a narrative of his pre-conversion life trying to achieve righteousness by adherence to the Law of Moses.
Faithfulness often looks like adherence to the Law of Moses.
I am glad we in the NT can do it by walking in the Spirit, whereas those of the OT had to try doing it while walking in the flesh.
I disagree, as He never commanded any of those things.
Then Jesus wasn't saved.
He often ignored the sabbath day rulings.
Show one time Jesus commanded circumcision, and I will agree with you.
You probably know how much that affects me.
Paul, the confused legalist Christian...I suppose?
Just as much as Paul was.
Kind of an odd thing to say after quoting Paul's exhortation, don't you think?
I have to endure faithfully until the end, like Abraham did.
The righteous don't remain ungodly, in the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21).
I'll tell you what.
When you can say you don't commit sin anymore, I will know you are faithful as Abraham and will listen to everything you have to say.
Until then, you are just another sinner trying to foist another accommodation for sin on us.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
So you're uninterested in the passage in question, and want to talk about something else instead.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you agree with some scripture and twist the rest to fit "your" narrative
these two passages are from two different dispensations but you mash them into one ,
and from that you don't understand what happened in the new testament
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
it really is simple and there is a precedent , just like Abraham had two covenants there are two dispensations in the new testament
Abraham had a covenant by faith and no works of any kind (like we have now)
and had a covenant by faith + works\ circumcision (which was the plan before Israel was cast away )
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
and
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Jesus is the sacrifice of the new covenant with the Jews
(Matthew 26:28) for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed on behalf of many for remission of sins.
Mid Acts Dispensation to Paul salvation apart from the Jews
the Jews did not all repent , they have been cast away temporarily until the fullness of the gentiles
see that the 12 apostles never took their gospel to the whole world
instead Jesus raised up Paul to go to the gentiles with a new dispensation with the same sacrifice
same gospel different rules
(Galatians 1:6-7)
[6] I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel, [7] which is not another,
you say that like you understand faith without works , but you clearly do not understand
sorry Jesus didn't write the bible they way you think he should've
judging by appearance is a sin , not righteous judgement
(John 7:24) Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
do you know what sin is ?
When Jesus said not to do something then doing that something is a sin
Abraham lied about his wife
David committed adultery and had Uriah killed
sin of unbelief
it's a sin because you are to receive Jesus not reject Jesus
(John 12:48) He who rejects Me and does not receive My words has one who judges him; the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day
Abraham lied about his wife
David committed adultery and had Uriah killed
17] But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
so you're not a Christian , just a religious person
do you not have the Holy Spirit that confirms your adoption
(Romans 8:15) For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!
so you confuse a symbolic death with your actual physical death
you're wrong on so many things , who do you follow because they're leading you astray ?
but you pretend that you don't sin even tho you admit to sinning by judging by appearance .
"It is permanent, until you"
can't be pre conversion
if it was past tense as you suggest then Paul is saying he was never responsible for his sin ,
only understood from the perspective about his current condition at the time of writing
(Romans 7:15-17) [15] For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do. [16] If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good. [17] But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
no, adherence to the Law looks like employment .
salvation employment or family
you:
employment
you have faith in the employer God
you receive the job by grace (did not earn it)
but you have to do works to keep the job (salvation)
Mid Acts Dispensation:
family
you have faith in God
you receive adoption by grace
you receive Christ righteousness which covers all your sins
family its permanent
you said you agree with scripture but now you disagree
(II Timothy 3:16) Every scripture is inspired by God
no Jesus didn't ignore the Law , he wrote the Laws and kept the Law but understood how what he wrote had been corrupted
example:
(Matthew 15:4-7) [4] For God commanded, saying, "Honor your father and mother"; and, "He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him die by death." [5] But you say, Whoever says to his father or mother, Whatever you would gain from me, It is a gift to God; [6] and in no way he honors his father or his mother. And you voided the commandment of God by your tradition. [7] Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
you are told not to judge by appearance but you try and excuse your sin the same way , you think your sin is righteous
and I'm guessing this analogy is going to go over your head
(II Timothy 3:16) Every scripture is inspired by God
I agree with scripture.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
no , you keep the Law and are not saved unless you endure to the end ,
me , I'm adopted by faith
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Abraham had a covenant by faith and no works of any kind (like we have now)
and had a covenant by faith + works\ circumcision (which was the plan before Israel was cast away )
that is what Jesus said to the Jews under the Law
(Matthew 24:13) But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved
but Paul's Mid Acts Dispensation has adoption
(Romans 8:15) For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Abraham lied about his wife
David committed adultery and had Uriah killed
and you're not sinless either .
when are going to admit you still sin ?
judging by appearance is a sin , not righteous judgement
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
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The scripture, Acts 10:15, doesn't mention people at all.
Though people, and Gentiles inparticular, are the theme of the visitation from God's voice, only foods were actually mentioned...by God.
Peter, by the gift of the Holy Ghost obviously, took it to the next step at Cornelius' home.
Their "cleansing" occurred in verse 47, when Peter said..."Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
The cleansing was of past sins.