way 2 go
Well-known member
those who lived under the law had to keep the law in order to be saved.
"However, did God also require that they circumcise and keep the law? Yes He did."
Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?
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those who lived under the law had to keep the law in order to be saved.
"However, did God also require that they circumcise and keep the law? Yes He did."
That is basically the same assertion made, three times.
Lost your reading glasses, Jerry?
:chuckle:
Yo, way2go,
1 - what specific passages of Scripture does Enyart base that assertion on?
2 - is Enyart talking about the Believing Remnant of Israel only, or does he also mean those formerly lost Jews saved into the Body (beginning with Paul himself), after that Israelite salvation was temporarily set aside just before Paul himself was saved?
Acts 17:11,12.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Hey Danoh do you think that if a believing Israelite, such as the ones to whom James and Peter wrote their epistles, and Jude---if one of them did Romans 10:9 KJV, but he didn't do anything else, do you think he was saved?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Show me where in any of those quotes it is never specifically said that the requirements are in regard to "salvation." It could be possible that the requirements spoke about being a member of the commonwealth of Israel.
I just wanted to make sure Bob was speaking about "salvation" before I went any further.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith, the same way that all Christians are saved:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
The Jewish believers were born again the moment when they believed the gospel:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...and this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
It is impossible that "works" of any kind played a role in their salvation because they were saved by faith alone, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to those who lived under the law:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"(Jn.6:63).
There can be doubt whatsoever that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith apart from works. The Lord Jesus also told them the following:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).
Right Divider
Body part
There are different kinds of salvation in the Bible:
1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and that salvation is the same one Paul spoke of here:
"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Ro.13:11).
Peter made it plain that those who received his epistles were born again by the gospel. That is not speaking about something in the future but instead something which happens upon belief. Besides that, do you not know that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive. If it is of grace thren it is not of works. And Paul made it plain that the believers who lived under the law were saved by grace:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
way 2 go
Well-known member
from Bob Enyarts The Plot page 114
For those needing more Old Testament evidence that God instructed Israel to keep the law, see also
Ex. 15:26; 23:22; 12:24; 13:10; 15:26; Lev. 18:5, 30; 20:22; 22:31;
Num. 15:22-23;
Deut. 4:1, 5-6, 44-45; 5:1, 29-33; 6:17, 24-25; 7:11-12; 8:1; 10:12-13; 11:1; 12:32; 27:26; 28:58-59;
2 Kings 23:3; Neh. 1:9; [13:14];
Ps. 18:20-25; 78:1, 7; 94:12; 103:17-18; 105:8-10, 45; 106:3; 112:1; 119:4-12, 16, 22, 26, 29, 44, 47, 51-55, 60, 68, 77, 94, 97, 100, 109-112, 115, 129, 136, 145-146, 153, 166, 174-176; 147:19;
Prov. 28:9;
Jer. 26:4; Ezek. 20:11, 13, 19, 21; Dan. 9:10-11, 13; Hos. 4:6; Zech. 3:2, 7; 7:12; Mal. 2:8; 3:7; 4:4 and
Gen. 17:10.
Bob is talking old testament believers like Moses who had to have his wife circumcise their son or die
Exo 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him and sought to put him to death.
Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"
Exo 4:26 So he let him alone. It was then that she said, "A bridegroom of blood," because of the circumcision.
One part of his words, appears to be asserting that both NT Jewish Believers ALSO had to continue the practice of Circumcision and The Law.
This part here that you posted by Enyart, appears to be about NT Jewish Believers...
If that is what he is asserting, does he go into what their keeping The Law and Circumcision might accomplish?
Thanks
Rom. 5:6-8
No sense in answering absent of also sharing the context within which I an answering you from.
Said context being that there were two groups of Believing Jews/Israelites during the 1st Century.
James mentions both groups to Paul, in the following exchange between them.
Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Group One:
21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Group Two:
21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
That Second Group had been converted by Paul and or one or another of his co-laborers, and were as the Gentiles converted by Paul and or by one or another of his co-laborers.
Such Jews/Israelites that James' has just mentioned to Paul in verse 21 herein above that he and his group (James and company) has heard of, were as these Gentiles...
21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Here, for example, is a writing to, and a description of, by Paul, of this Second Group of 1st Century Believing Jews/Israelites - but among the Gentiles: Jews/Israelites who, unlike James' Group, were taught by Paul that they were not...under The Law...
Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Of course, this was due to a change in Economy, Stewardship, or Dispensation...
From Prophecy (Israel: concerning that which was Prophesied since the world began, Acts 3:21) to Mystery (the Body: concerning that which was Kept Secret since the world began, Rom. 16:25).
As with any New Administration, remnants of the Old remain for a time, gradually diminishing away, as the New one, eventually surpasses every aspect of it that had applied only in a prior Dispensation, or Economy.
However, the assertion that this diminishing away of that which had been Prophesied was more and more superseded by that which had been Kept Secret, is not to say that God was now through with that "short work upon the earth" concerning Israel which He had Prophesied He will one day yet bring to come to pass...
Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The result being that with the TEMPORARY interruption of that which had been Prophesied, one finds a diminishing away of its' Economy or Dispensation that results in a remnant of the prior one, for a time.
Case in point...
Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
That right there is a description of an individual who was behind in his understanding - BY DECADES - all the way back to BEFORE the Lord even BEGAN His ministry to Israel "AFTER that John was put in prison" Mark 1:14, 15.
To answer your question in light of my above...
"Hey Danoh do you think that if a believing Israelite, such as the ones to whom James and Peter wrote their epistles, and Jude---if one of them did Romans 10:9 KJV, but he didn't do anything else, do you think he was saved?"
My answer is that it depends on which group that applied to, and also, on how exactly it might have, or not.
And I already answered a part of that.
Acts 17:11, 12.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Everyone who has ever been saved throughout history has been saved in only one way, by grace through faith apart from works of any kind. Have you never read the third and fourth chapters of the epistle to the Romans?
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I agree, Jerry. I don't understand how Romans 10:9 KJV could possibly allow for salvation that is through something other than Romans 10:9 KJV, and that Romans 10:9 KJV has been operative since God promised Abraham what He did. But I see what [MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] is getting at, the two groups, in Acts 21. I just don't know what I'm going to think that it means yet.
It might mean that Dispensationalism is correct, but then, it still might not.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
But I see what [MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] is getting at, the two groups, in Acts 21. I just don't know what I'm going to think that it means yet.
The Jews at Jerusalem kept the law throughout the Acts period (see Acts 21: 20-26). Many people ask, since Paul was teaching the churches which he founded that they are no longer under the law, then why did the Jews in the Jerusalem church continue to keep the law?
When Paul went to Jerusalem at Acts 21 he too kept the law, even going so far as to make offerings required under the law (Acts21:26). I believe the following words of Paul explain his actions at Acts 21: 26:
"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" (1 Cor. 9: 20).
I believe that it was of the will of God for the Jerusalem church to remain under the law, and His reason would be so that He might gain those who were under the law. But the believing Jews like Peter knew that his salvation was on the principle of grace (Acts 15:11).
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
It seems like a liturgical question. Once they determined in that Church council that John 3:16 KJV, Romans 10:9 KJV, and Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV is the truth, they still had to figure out the liturgy, and circumcision was part of the old liturgy, but the new liturgy was baptism for initiation, not circumcision, along with confirmation, both of which are bloodless.
The liturgy of the Eucharist is also bloodless, which is why it is not violating Hebrews 10, in being offered up continually by the Church, because the bloody sacrifice, was Christ's actual passion, while the Eucharist is bloodless, except for transubstantiation. Plus He said to do it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Where is your evidence of these things which you assert are true?
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
The Church council is in Acts 15, circumcision is from the Old Testament, baptism is from John 3 & numerous other New Testament books, and confirmation is from Church history.
I am just 'spit-balling,' regarding this being a question of liturgy though, that's from me.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you want to 'spit-ball' concerning the fate of the Jerusalem church in 70 AD?
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Do you? Do you have some scriptures that were written after then?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What about the epistle of James?
James certainly understood that salvation comes by faith and nothing else:
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
Peter says the same thing here:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
So then James contradicted himself?
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:24&version=NKJV