Hi and still like to BLOVIATE and are also a CODSWALLOP , so when are you going to believe Paul as he wrote by the Holy Spirit ??
dan p
ECT Why Won't MAD Folks Address 2 Peter 3:15?
- Thread starter Dialogos
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Hi and still like to BLOVIATE and are also a CODSWALLOP , so when are you going to believe Paul as he wrote by the Holy Spirit ??
dan p
Dan P,
Thanks for the response.
Yes. Galatians and 1 and 2 Peter were all written to the same audience. That’s the presenting, and I would argue, fatal problem for MAD as this fact disallows the conclusion that Peter and Paul had different gospels as Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that anyone who preached a different gospel to the Galatians deserved to go to hell.
Verse 16 mentions nothing about a Jewish assembly. Paul wrote to the believers in Galatia who were being troubled by judaizers that instructed them that their salvation was dependent upon law keeping in addition to their faith. Paul's only instruction to those judaizers is to emasculate themselves. Paul only had the harshest of condemnations for those who would make salvation dependent upon keeping the Mosaic law, yet some would have us believe that Peter took up his pen to write the same audience approximately 10 years later teaching that obedience to the law was necessary for salvation.
I agree the Paul wrote Hebrews, but Hebrews was very clearly written to Hebrews in Jerusalem, not Hebrews in Galatia. Though I have no problem applying what was taught in Hebrews to any believer, the internal evidence overwhelmingly supports the notion that the book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians in and near Jerusalem not Galatia.
In 2 Peter, Peter is talking about Paul’s epistle written specifically to the Galatians.
“Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, (2Pe 3:15 NKJ)”
But even if we grant the improbable and allow you to argue that Peter is talking about the circulation of the book of Hebrews and not referring to Paul epistle to the Galatians when he refers to what Paul wrote to them, this doesn't solve the theological problem for you.
Paul wrote to them out of the wisdom that God gave to him, and that wisdom was a gospel that didn’t include law keeping for salvation which the epistle to the Galatians makes absolutely clear.
Paul was given wisdom and from that wisdom (his gospel) he wrote to the same audience that Peter is addressing whether that wisdom came through the epistle to the Galatians (most likely) or through the circulation of the book of Hebrews (least likely).
These facts cannot be denied from the most logical interpretation of this verse.
In other words, your theology teaches that Paul’s 13 epistles are about dispensationalism so that is the only interpretive framework from which you will interpret this verse.
This is eisegesis, not exegesis and it ends up ignoring what is clear from a plain reading of the verse. If you start with the notion that you will wrestle any and all passages back into your theological framework you can make any passage say whatever you want it to.
That’s nice.
Ad Hom attacks don’t prove anything and are a waste of time.
Way 2 Go said:
So why is Peter preaching a different gospel to a group of beleivers that have already been told the following?
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:9 NKJ)
:think:
Is Peter anathema because he preached the gospel of the circumcision to the Galatian believers who most likely received the gospel from Paul himself (see Gal 4:19)?
Simon Baker,
You said:
Simon,
If you just don’t have an answer, I would suggesting being honest and admit that you have no answer rather that substituting sarcasm for an intelligent reply.
FOR DIALOGOSISASOSSimon has the answers. not for dumb questions that have been asked for centuries and have been answered. READ. that's what it takes, NOT asking questions to refute, debate and make your own conclusions. attacks on MAD is an affront to yourself, for lack of reading and comprehension. ask away, and doubt and argue. it's much easier to READ and Understand. thanks for the QUESTIONS - with NO ANSWER
andy - That's UNBELIEVABLE, Musterion interprets better than most. i can't say the same for you -
You have never been filled with the Holy Spirit have you.
such would completely change your life for the good.
LA
musterion
Well-known member
Do you see Paul referring to Jews as Jews or to Israel as Israel in his last letters?
Money where you mouth is.
andyc
New member
Paul makes a distinction between spiritual Jews and physical Jews.
What he says in his first or last letters cannot alter obvious facts. If something is factual, it remains factual.
Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel
Those who are the physical seed of Abraham are Israelites. They are his physical descendants. But in order to be his spiritual descendants, they must be believers.
This is where MAD has utterly failed. Mad has invented a system where Spiritual believers who are of the spiritual seed of Abraham, are not spiritual believers because they are still tied to works.
MAD is just a complete theological train wreck.
You will not be able to answer this, because MAD prevents you.
What was the promise to Abraham, that he would be the father of many nations?
How was this promise fulfilled?
musterion
Well-known member
Romans is an early letter.
So I'll repeat.
Does Paul make any reference to Jews as Jews or to Israel as Israel in his LATER letters?
way 2 go
Well-known member
is that a question or statement?
Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen_16:15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
Gen_21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
do peter and James bring up that
Abraham was to be the father of many nations ?
Hi and what this person does NOT see , is that there are promises under ABRAM and promise given to ABRAHAM and they are different just as in Gal 2:7 " THE UN-CIRCUMCISION GOSPEL " given to Paul and " THE CIRCUMCISION " given to Peter and do not recognize the Greek Article " THE " which points to 2 different gospels and that a Gospel was also given to Abram in Gen 12 and in Gal 3:8 !!
dan p
andyc
New member
You're not getting it.
If something is factual it remains factual. Your physical parents will always be your physical parents whether or not you refer to them as such.
Physical Israel remains physical Israel regardless of whether Paul mentions it In AD40 or AD70.
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh
There's also about 6 - 8 years between Paul writing Romans and 2nd Timothy. So whatever you presume changed, would have happened within that short time period. And if it were as dramatic as it would have been, there would be some mention of it. There's not. What a surprise.
It is believed that Paul wrote some of his later epistles while under house arrest in Rome, and we read in Acts at that time, that Paul gathered the Jews, and he referred to them as brethren.
andyc
New member
Romans 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
You are quoting verses trying to show a physical fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. If the promise is spiritual, what was promised to Abraham?
Do they deny it?
andyc
New member
Because it simply isn't there.
Excuse me?
The promise to Abraham is that he would be the father of many nations, which happens when a person is born of the Spirit. And so Paul understands the pouring out of the Spirit upon all nations, as fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, that he would be a father of many nations. It is through Christ (his seed according to the flesh), that the promise is made possible.
The message of the gospel is going to be different in regard to how the Jews and gentiles are to acknowledge Jesus. The Jews have to accept him as the messiah according to the prophecies in scripture, and the gentiles need introduction regarding the promises to Israel, and how it impacts the world. The gospel to the gentiles is the fast track gospel where the law is bypassed, and the gospel to the Jews is that Christ is the fulfillment and end of the law through faith.
The promise to Abraham is that he will be the father of many nations, and this promise is accomplished by spiritual birth. Therefore the promise is the Holy Spirit, made possible by Abraham's seed - Jesus.
The fulfillment of the promise to Abraham is future--
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
No.
There is only one way to enter the Kingdom of God for all.
In our time Gods nation is only one, and that one of faith in Christ.
After Christ returns then the only nations left will survive because they turned to Christ because of the last witness before He returns.
Psa 72:1 A Psalm for Solomon. Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
Psa 72:2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
Psa 72:3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
Psa 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
Psa 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psa 72:12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
Psa 72:13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
Psa 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
Psa 72:15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
Psa 72:16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Psa 72:18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
Psa 72:19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
Psa 72:20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.
LA
andyc
New member
The fulfillment of the promise to Abraham is future--
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
No.
There is only one way to enter the Kingdom of God for all.
In our time Gods nation is only one, and that one of faith in Christ.
After Christ returns then the only nations left will survive because they turned to Christ because of the last witness before He returns.
Psa 72:1 A Psalm for Solomon. Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
Psa 72:2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
Psa 72:3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
Psa 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
Psa 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psa 72:12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
Psa 72:13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
Psa 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
Psa 72:15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
Psa 72:16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Psa 72:18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
Psa 72:19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
Psa 72:20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.
LA
I can't quite understand why you're disagreeing with me, yet not disagreeing with what I said. You're simply looking at things from different angles.
Yes the promise was future, but it was still to Abraham and his seed.
What the MADs don't accept is that the promise to Abraham was spiritually fulfilled, because they want to exclude him and his physical seed from the spiritual promise.
The promise is the Holy Spirit, as explained in the Galatians passage. This is what transforms a person from a gentile in the natural, to a spiritual Jew of the spiritual seed of Abraham.
Of course there is only one way to enter the kingdom, and that is faith, but the message of the gospel is going to be different in regard to who Jesus is. To the Jew he's the messiah prophesied in scripture, but gentiles had to first be introduced to the scriptures in order to understand who Jesus is and why his coming was necessary.
musterion
Well-known member
Do you see Paul referring to Israel as Israel or to Jews as Jews in his later letters? Yes or no.
Maybe I should type in tongues so you can pretend to understand the question?
andyc
New member
It's your reason I've been dealing with.
As I said, Paul addressed the Jews as his brethren in Acts 28. How are they his brethren?
Fellow Jews
musterion
Well-known member
It's your reason I've been dealing with.
As I said, Paul addressed the Jews as his brethren in Acts 28. How are they his brethren?
Fellow Jews
Do you see Paul referring to Israel as Israel or to Jews as Jews in his later letters? Yes or no.
To whom is Jesus referring, do you think?
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
LA
musterion
Well-known member
Jesus outranks Paul.
in any case, it is not blasphemy to claim to be a flesh Jew, but it is blasphemy to claim one is a spiritual Jew when one is not.
LA