ECT Why Won't MAD Folks Address 2 Peter 3:15?

[Dialogos]

In at least two threads so far I have asked MAD folks how they deal with the apparent problem that 2 Peter 3:15 brings to their dispensational hermeneutic.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2Pe 3:14-16 NKJ)​

This passage is clear. Peter, wrote to the same group of believers that Paul wrote to in the book of Galatians. We know this is the case because Peter acknowledges that Paul's epistle (Galatians) was written to the same audience Peter is addressing in 2 Peter when he says, "has written to you."

This is a problem for MAD theologues who hold that Peter and Paul preached different gospels with different requirements for salvation.

Among those problems is that Peter clearly prescribes baptism for his audience (1 Peter 3:21-22) which most MAD adherents disavow is for the body of Christ.

But the worst challenge facing MAD given the fact that Peter and Paul were writing to the same audience is that Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that if anyone were to preach a different gospel to them, they should be eternally condemned.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:8-9 NKJ)​

Did Peter preach a different gospel to the Galatians and therefore fall under Paul's anathema?

 

[DAN P]

In at least two threads so far I have asked MAD folks how they deal with the apparent problem that 2 Peter 3:15 brings to their dispensational hermeneutic.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2Pe 3:14-16 NKJ)​

This passage is clear. Peter, wrote to the same group of believers that Paul wrote to in the book of Galatians. We know this is the case because Peter acknowledges that Paul's epistle (Galatians) was written to the same audience Peter is addressing in 2 Peter when he says, "has written to you."

This is a problem for MAD theologues who hold that Peter and Paul preached different gospels with different requirements for salvation.

Among those problems is that Peter clearly prescribes baptism for his audience (1 Peter 3:21-22) which most MAD adherents disavow is for the body of Christ.

But the worst challenge facing MAD given the fact that Peter and Paul were writing to the same audience is that Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that if anyone were to preach a different gospel to them, they should be eternally condemned.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:8-9 NKJ)​

Did Peter preach a different gospel to the Galatians and therefore fall under Paul's anathema?

Hi and happy to address APPARENT so-called concerns .

I believe that it was Galatians , Pauls first book .

Where you STUMBLE is this that Peter does acknowledge that Paul wrote to to the Jewisk assembly in verse 16 .

I believe that book that Paul wrote to the Jews was the Book of Hebrews !

As the 13 epistles are abour Dispensationalism and NOT the Jewish religion OR Pentecost ,

In verse 16 , Peter have a hard time understanding calls those who are Unlearned and Unstable , TWIST or WREST scriptures unto there own DESTRUCTION !!

No one will be able to prove that Paul's writing were the same as Peter , not Peter's Circumcision Gosprl in Gal 2:7 !!

You are ALL SYMBOLISM and not SUBSTANCE !!:deadhorse::deadhorse:

DAN P

 

[way 2 go]

In at least two threads so far I have asked MAD folks how they deal with the apparent problem that 2 Peter 3:15 brings to their dispensational hermeneutic.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2Pe 3:14-16 NKJ)​

This passage is clear. Peter, wrote to the same group of believers that Paul wrote to in the book of Galatians. We know this is the case because Peter acknowledges that Paul's epistle (Galatians) was written to the same audience Peter is addressing in 2 Peter when he says, "has written to you."

This is a problem for MAD theologues who hold that Peter and Paul preached different gospels with different requirements for salvation.

Among those problems is that Peter clearly prescribes baptism for his audience (1 Peter 3:21-22) which most MAD adherents disavow is for the body of Christ.

But the worst challenge facing MAD given the fact that Peter and Paul were writing to the same audience is that Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that if anyone were to preach a different gospel to them, they should be eternally condemned.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:8-9 NKJ)​

Did Peter preach a different gospel to the Galatians and therefore fall under Paul's anathema?

beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him
not
beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to us

peter writes "him" not "us"
because they have different gospels

Rom_16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him
not
beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to us

peter writes "him" not "us"
because they have different gospels

Rom_16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel

Yep!

 

[Simon Baker]

In at least two threads so far I have asked MAD folks how they deal with the apparent problem that 2 Peter 3:15 brings to their dispensational hermeneutic.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2Pe 3:14-16 NKJ)​

This passage is clear. Peter, wrote to the same group of believers that Paul wrote to in the book of Galatians. We know this is the case because Peter acknowledges that Paul's epistle (Galatians) was written to the same audience Peter is addressing in 2 Peter when he says, "has written to you."

This is a problem for MAD theologues who hold that Peter and Paul preached different gospels with different requirements for salvation.

Among those problems is that Peter clearly prescribes baptism for his audience (1 Peter 3:21-22) which most MAD adherents disavow is for the body of Christ.

But the worst challenge facing MAD given the fact that Peter and Paul were writing to the same audience is that Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that if anyone were to preach a different gospel to them, they should be eternally condemned.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:8-9 NKJ)​

Did Peter preach a different gospel to the Galatians and therefore fall under Paul's anathema?

Congratulations, for your lack of reading for information, (BTW, state testing in addition to other categories of testing.) I would consider the Timeline of WHEN things were Written and Said, in comparison to WHO wrote it and Said it. Research that and get back to us.:duh:

 

[Dialogos]

Dan P,

Thanks for the response.

Hi and happy to address APPARENT so-called concerns .

I believe that it was Galatians , Pauls first book .

Yes. Galatians and 1 and 2 Peter were all written to the same audience. That’s the presenting, and I would argue, fatal problem for MAD as this fact disallows the conclusion that Peter and Paul had different gospels as Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that anyone who preached a different gospel to the Galatians deserved to go to hell.

Where you STUMBLE is this that Peter does acknowledge that Paul wrote to to the Jewisk assembly in verse 16 .

Verse 16 mentions nothing about a Jewish assembly. Paul wrote to the believers in Galatia who were being troubled by judaizers that instructed them that their salvation was dependent upon law keeping in addition to their faith. Paul's only instruction to those judaizers is to emasculate themselves. Paul only had the harshest of condemnations for those who would make salvation dependent upon keeping the Mosaic law, yet some would have us believe that Peter took up his pen to write the same audience approximately 10 years later teaching that obedience to the law was necessary for salvation.

I believe that book that Paul wrote to the Jews was the Book of Hebrews !

I agree the Paul wrote Hebrews, but Hebrews was very clearly written to Hebrews in Jerusalem, not Hebrews in Galatia. Though I have no problem applying what was taught in Hebrews to any believer, the internal evidence overwhelmingly supports the notion that the book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians in and near Jerusalem not Galatia.

In 2 Peter, Peter is talking about Paul’s epistle written specifically to the Galatians.

“Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, (2Pe 3:15 NKJ)”​

But even if we grant the improbable and allow you to argue that Peter is talking about the circulation of the book of Hebrews and not referring to Paul epistle to the Galatians when he refers to what Paul wrote to them, this doesn't solve the theological problem for you.

Paul wrote to them out of the wisdom that God gave to him, and that wisdom was a gospel that didn’t include law keeping for salvation which the epistle to the Galatians makes absolutely clear.

Paul was given wisdom and from that wisdom (his gospel) he wrote to the same audience that Peter is addressing whether that wisdom came through the epistle to the Galatians (most likely) or through the circulation of the book of Hebrews (least likely).
These facts cannot be denied from the most logical interpretation of this verse.

As the 13 epistles are abour Dispensationalism and NOT the Jewish religion OR Pentecost ,

In other words, your theology teaches that Paul’s 13 epistles are about dispensationalism so that is the only interpretive framework from which you will interpret this verse.

This is eisegesis, not exegesis and it ends up ignoring what is clear from a plain reading of the verse. If you start with the notion that you will wrestle any and all passages back into your theological framework you can make any passage say whatever you want it to.

You are ALL SYMBOLISM and not SUBSTANCE !!

That’s nice.

Ad Hom attacks don’t prove anything and are a waste of time.

Way 2 Go said:

beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him
not
beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to us

peter writes "him" not "us"
because they have different gospels

So why is Peter preaching a different gospel to a group of beleivers that have already been told the following?

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:9 NKJ)​

:think:

Is Peter anathema because he preached the gospel of the circumcision to the Galatian believers who most likely received the gospel from Paul himself (see Gal 4:19)?


Simon Baker,
You said:

Congratulations, for your lack of reading for information, (BTW, state testing in addition to other categories of testing.) I would consider the Timeline of WHEN things were Written and Said, in comparison to WHO wrote it and Said it. Research that and get back to us :duh:

Simon,

If you just don’t have an answer, I would suggesting being honest and admit that you have no answer rather that substituting sarcasm for an intelligent reply.

 

[DAN P]

Dan P,

Thanks for the response.


Yes. Galatians and 1 and 2 Peter were all written to the same audience. That’s the presenting, and I would argue, fatal problem for MAD as this fact disallows the conclusion that Peter and Paul had different gospels as Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that anyone who preached a different gospel to the Galatians deserved to go to hell.


Verse 16 mentions nothing about a Jewish assembly. Paul wrote to the believers in Galatia who were being troubled by judaizers that instructed them that their salvation was dependent upon law keeping in addition to their faith. Paul's only instruction to those judaizers is to emasculate themselves. Paul only had the harshest of condemnations for those who would make salvation dependent upon keeping the Mosaic law, yet some would have us believe that Peter took up his pen to write the same audience approximately 10 years later teaching that obedience to the law was necessary for salvation.


I agree the Paul wrote Hebrews, but Hebrews was very clearly written to Hebrews in Jerusalem, not Hebrews in Galatia. Though I have no problem applying what was taught in Hebrews to any believer, the internal evidence overwhelmingly supports the notion that the book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians in and near Jerusalem not Galatia.

In 2 Peter, Peter is talking about Paul’s epistle written specifically to the Galatians.

“Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, (2Pe 3:15 NKJ)”​

But even if we grant the improbable and allow you to argue that Peter is talking about the circulation of the book of Hebrews and not referring to Paul epistle to the Galatians when he refers to what Paul wrote to them, this doesn't solve the theological problem for you.

Paul wrote to them out of the wisdom that God gave to him, and that wisdom was a gospel that didn’t include law keeping for salvation which the epistle to the Galatians makes absolutely clear.

Paul was given wisdom and from that wisdom (his gospel) he wrote to the same audience that Peter is addressing whether that wisdom came through the epistle to the Galatians (most likely) or through the circulation of the book of Hebrews (least likely).
These facts cannot be denied from the most logical interpretation of this verse.



In other words, your theology teaches that Paul’s 13 epistles are about dispensationalism so that is the only interpretive framework from which you will interpret this verse.

This is eisegesis, not exegesis and it ends up ignoring what is clear from a plain reading of the verse. If you start with the notion that you will wrestle any and all passages back into your theological framework you can make any passage say whatever you want it to.


That’s nice.

Ad Hom attacks don’t prove anything and are a waste of time.

Way 2 Go said:

So why is Peter preaching a different gospel to a group of beleivers that have already been told the following?

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:9 NKJ)​

:think:

Is Peter anathema because he preached the gospel of the circumcision to the Galatian believers who most likely received the gospel from Paul himself (see Gal 4:19)?


Simon Baker,
You said:

Simon,

If you just don’t have an answer, I would suggesting being honest and admit that you have no answer rather that substituting sarcasm for an intelligent reply.

Hi and I could spend much time , taking APART what you have written , but would need more time !

I 1 Cor 15:8 ONLY Saul /Paul was " BORN out of DUE TIME "

and the 12 were " BORN in DUE TIME " so in Gal 1:8 , all that preach any other gospel than what Paul was given are ACCURSED !!

The message today is EPH 3:9 to make ALL SEE what is the Dispensation of the MYSTERY , and never taught by the Peter oe the 12 apostles .

Read Acts 15:11 !!

dan p

 

[musterion]

Hi and happy to address APPARENT so-called concerns .

I believe that it was Galatians , Pauls first book .

Where you STUMBLE is this that Peter does acknowledge that Paul wrote to to the Jewisk assembly in verse 16 .

I believe that book that Paul wrote to the Jews was the Book of Hebrews !

As the 13 epistles are abour Dispensationalism and NOT the Jewish religion OR Pentecost ,

In verse 16 , Peter have a hard time understanding calls those who are Unlearned and Unstable , TWIST or WREST scriptures unto there own DESTRUCTION !!

No one will be able to prove that Paul's writing were the same as Peter , not Peter's Circumcision Gospel in Gal 2:7 !!

You are ALL SYMBOLISM and not SUBSTANCE !!:deadhorse::deadhorse:

DAN P

Yep. The very reason why we see no references to Israel as Israel or to Jews as Jews* in Paul's final letters. The door wasn't shut yet when Peter referenced what Paul had written. But by Ephesians/Philippians/Colossians/1-2 Timothy/Titus/Philemon, it had closed. Simple, really.

*Eph 3:6 (implied) and Col 4:11 are the only exceptions I can find. Eph 2:12 is past tense, historical. The earlier epistles are FULL of such references due to the backgrounds of the people to whom Paul wrote. The later epistles lack them for the same reason.

 

[musterion]

Did Peter preach a different gospel to the Galatians and therefore fall under Paul's anathema?

1. Did Peter preach anything to the Galatians? Not as far as Scripture reveals (cf Gal 2:9). But Paul (very likely) did write Hebrews, as Dan pointed out. That is probably what Peter was referring to, as Peter did add "...as also in all his epistles," which group would include the letter to the Galatians.

2. Who does Peter identify as his letters' recipients? Jewish believers, exactly per Galatians 2:9.

 

[way 2 go]

So why is Peter preaching a different gospel to a group of beleivers that have already been told the following?

Peter is preaching to Jews

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:9 NKJ)​

:think:

Gal_2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.

Is Peter anathema because he preached the gospel of the circumcision to the Galatian believers who most likely received the gospel from Paul himself (see Gal 4:19)?

If i told you you had to be circumcised to be saved today
what would you say ?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

In at least two threads so far I have asked MAD folks how they deal with the apparent problem that 2 Peter 3:15 brings to their dispensational hermeneutic.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2Pe 3:14-16 NKJ)​

This passage is clear. Peter, wrote to the same group of believers that Paul wrote to in the book of Galatians. We know this is the case because Peter acknowledges that Paul's epistle (Galatians) was written to the same audience Peter is addressing in 2 Peter when he says, "has written to you."

This is a problem for MAD theologues who hold that Peter and Paul preached different gospels with different requirements for salvation.

Among those problems is that Peter clearly prescribes baptism for his audience (1 Peter 3:21-22) which most MAD adherents disavow is for the body of Christ.

But the worst challenge facing MAD given the fact that Peter and Paul were writing to the same audience is that Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that if anyone were to preach a different gospel to them, they should be eternally condemned.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:8-9 NKJ)​

Did Peter preach a different gospel to the Galatians and therefore fall under Paul's anathema?

All true believers are built upon the foundation laid down by all the 12 Apostles with the chief corner stone being Christ.

There exists only one houshold of living stones of God.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;



Pauls ministry had much to do with founding churches of living stones, more so than the work of an evangelist which he also was.

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.


While all living stones are built upon the one foundation which is Christ which is one body, the churches (assemblies) themselves vary in many ways, and it is the ending of these churches at the ending of this age and the bringing in of the completed House of God to rule over all nations in government and assemblies which is the focus of the book of Revelation.

The prayer of all the saints through the ages has been the same---

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

LA

 

[Dialogos]

Hi and I could spend much time , taking APART what you have written , but would need more time !

Ok, take all the time you need. Take a month if you need one.

Or are you basically just punting on the question and using time as an excuse for why you won’t be answering the question at all?

I 1 Cor 15:8 ONLY Saul /Paul was " BORN out of DUE TIME "

and the 12 were " BORN in DUE TIME "

Not exactly relevant.

so in Gal 1:8 , all that preach any other gospel than what Paul was given are ACCURSED !!

Right.
And given that Peter clearly indicates that he is talking to the same group of believers that Paul was, that makes Peter anathema, Paul wrong for issuing the anathema or MAD wrong for creating a false distinction between Peter's and Paul's gospel.

I choose option three.

Musterion:

Yep. The very reason why we see no references to Israel as Israel or to Jews as Jews* in Paul's final letters.
The door wasn't shut yet when Peter referenced what Paul had written.

Where in the bible does it say that the door was shut on salvation for Jews as Jews (whatever that means, I don’t think Jews get saved as anything other than Jews even today)?
Furthermore, what does this have to do with the fact that the logical conclusion of MAD is Paul affectively anathematizing Peter for preaching a gospel of law-keeping to the Galatians?
Your assertion to the contrary is flatly contradicted by the scriptures.

Did Peter preach anything to the Galatians?

Of course he did.
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1Pe 1:1 NKJ)”

Not as far as Scripture reveals (cf Gal 2:9).

:doh:

Read 1 Peter 1:1.

Gal 2:9 doesn’t mean what you are trying to say it means. Gal 2:9 does not support the errant assumption that there are two gospels.

But Paul (very likely) did write Hebrews, as Dan pointed out.

Probably so.

That is probably what Peter was referring to,

Probably not.

What evidence do you have that this is the case?

Wanting this to be true, or your theology needing it to be true, isn’t sufficient.

While Paul most likely wrote Hebrews there is no evidence that he wrote it specifically to the churches in Galatia. And Peter is referring to a letter from Paul written to the galatians.

“as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, (2Pe 3:15 NKJ)"​

as Peter did add "...as also in all his epistles," which group would include the letter to the Galatians.

You want us to believe that Peter is talking about Hebrews when he refers to an epistle of Paul to the Galatians despite the fact that the Word of God plainly states that Paul wrote Galatians to the churches in Galatia.

Hint: there is pretty common sense reason why Galatians is named Galatians.

But even if I grant this ridiculous proposition, this wouldn’t bail out MAD in regards to this conundrum.

Peter says that Paul wrote from the wisdom given to him in the letter than was addressed specifically to the Galatians and that he also wrote from said wisdom in all his epistles.

“and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things (2Pe 3:15-16 NKJ)​

Which means that Paul’s gospel of grace is consistent throughout his epistles.

So, again, why is Peter preaching the gospel of the circumcision to those whom Paul had already preached the gospel of grace?

It doesn’t matter how you mix and match Paul’s epistles, according to Peter, Paul speaks of the wisdom given to him (Paul’s gospel) in all his epistles.

So whichever of Paul’s epistles Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3:15, it contained the gospel of grace, and now, according to MAD, Peter is undoing that work and advocating a gospel that involves law-keeping for salvation.

Who does Peter identify as his letters' recipients? Jewish believers, exactly per Galatians 2:9.

Again, Galatians 2:9 doesn’t mean what you think it means.

But if it did, then MAD has Paul crossing the boundaries and preaching the gospel of grace to the Jews in the book of Hebrews. Now I am fine with the conclusion that the book of Hebrews is Paul preaching his gospel to the Jews, are you?

Way 2 Go:

Peter is preaching to Jews.

Highly unlikely given the way Peter speaks of his audience in 1 Peter.

Peter refers to their "former ignorance" (1 Peter 1:14) the futile ways inherited from their forefathers (1 Peter 1:18), and what is clearly their former lifestyle (1 Peter 4:3-4).

 

[musterion]

Musterion:

Where in the bible does it say that the door was shut on salvation for Jews as Jews (whatever that means, I don’t think Jews get saved as anything other than Jews even today)?

Jews as Jews have lost all claim of precedence before God, which they once enjoyed. All are now equally lost with no distinctions between them. I didn't realize you were that dim.

Furthermore, what does this have to do with the fact that the logical conclusion of MAD is Paul affectively anathematizing Peter for preaching a gospel of law-keeping to the Galatians?

Peter didn't write to Gentiles.

Your assertion to the contrary is flatly contradicted by the scriptures.

No.

Of course he did.
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,(1Pe 1:1 NKJ)”

Dispersed Jews in the region of Galatia AND IN SEVERAL OTHER REGIONS =/= the largely ex-pagan Gentile assembly founded by Paul.

:doh:

Read 1 Peter 1:1.

You should.

Gal 2:9 doesn’t mean what you are trying to say it means. Gal 2:9 does not support the errant assumption that there are two gospels.

Gal 2:9 doesn't mean what you are trying to say it means. Gal 2:9 supports the fact that there were two gospels.

Wanting this to be true, or your theology needing it to be true, isn’t sufficient.

Wanting your theology to be true, isn't sufficient.

While Paul most likely wrote Hebrews there is no evidence that he wrote it specifically to the churches in Galatia. And Peter is referring to a letter from Paul written to the galatians.

“as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, (2Pe 3:15 NKJ)"​

As I just pointed out, Peter wrote to many dispersed Jews in Pontus, Cappadocia, Asia, Bythinia and Galatia.

Now slow down and note very carefully (because you've already missed the import of this) that Galatia is only one of the five REGIONS to which this letter of Peter's was intended to reach. Ponder your thesis in light of that fact.

So, again, why is Peter preaching the gospel of the circumcision to those whom Paul had already preached the gospel of grace?

He's not.

It doesn’t matter how you mix and match Paul’s epistles, according to Peter, Paul speaks of the wisdom given to him (Paul’s gospel) in all his epistles.

But not in Peter's.

So whichever of Paul’s epistles Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3:15, it contained the gospel of grace, and now, according to MAD, Peter is undoing that work and advocating a gospel that involves law-keeping for salvation.

Paul addressed a single established assembly. Peter addressed no telling how many scattered Jews across FIVE DISTINCT GEOGRAPHICAL REGIONS.

Again, Galatians 2:9 doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Again, Galatians 2:9 doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[Dialogos]

Jews as Jews have lost all claim of precedence before God, which they once enjoyed.

Where does it say this in the bible?

I don't care what you think the status of the Jews are at present, I care what the bible says the status of the Jews are at present.

If you don't have adequate biblical substantiation then no one is obligated to believe you.

BTW, if you want a hint as to when the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and gentile was abolished you can look in Ephesians 2:14.

Peter didn't write to Gentiles.

You couldn't be more wrong.

1 Peter 1:18 makes it clear that Peter was writing to gentiles whose forefathers had passed down an “empty way of life.”

Dispersed Jews in the region of Galatia AND IN SEVERAL OTHER REGIONS =/= the largely ex-pagan Gentile assembly founded by Paul.

First Peter ch. 1 doesn’t say dispersed Jews. Stop adding to the word of God.
Furthermore, what does it matter if Peter wrote to other regions than Galatia, he still wrote to Galatia, and acknowledge that the same Galatians had received a letter from Paul.
You apparently think this letter is Hebrews, which is unlikely, rather than Galatians where we know with 100 percent certainty was written to Galatians in Galatia. :duh:

But even if you are right, your theology gets tripped up by the fact that Peter clearly acknowledges that Paul speaks from the wisdom granted him (Paul’s gospel) in “all his epistles” (2 Peter 3:16). BTW, that would include Hebrews.
So if Hebrews is the “epistle” you want to say Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3:15, then you have Paul preaching his gospel through Hebrews to the Jews. This would still work out just fine for my theological construct but would destroy yours as MAD needs to draw artificial distinctions between the way Jews under Peter’s gospel are saved and gentiles under Paul’s gospel are saved.

Now slow down and note very carefully (because you've already missed the import of this) that Galatia is only one of the five REGIONS to which this letter of Peter's was intended to reach. Ponder your thesis in light of that fact.

So what? Those other regions don’t erase the fact that it was addressed as much to a Galatian as it was to a Bythinian.

 

[andyc]

Hi and I could spend much time , taking APART what you have written , but would need more time !

I 1 Cor 15:8 ONLY Saul /Paul was " BORN out of DUE TIME "

and the 12 were " BORN in DUE TIME " so in Gal 1:8 , all that preach any other gospel than what Paul was given are ACCURSED !!

The message today is EPH 3:9 to make ALL SEE what is the Dispensation of the MYSTERY , and never taught bt the Peter oe the 12 apostles .

Read Acts 15:11 !!

dan p

So by your own logic....Peter was accursed.

 

[andyc]

Yep. The very reason why we see no references to Israel as Israel or to Jews as Jews* in Paul's final letters.

You are unbelievable. You should just give up trying to interpret Paul.

 

[andyc]

Where does it say this in the bible?

Madists don't go by what is said in the bible, but by what isn't said.
Peter, James, John never said "xxx" and therefore "xxx" never applied to them. How dumb is that?

 

[DAN P]

So by your own logic....Peter was accursed.

Hi and NO !!

I believe that Paul is writing about those who are saved by Grace and the " FALL FROM GRACE " as is writtin in Gal 5:4 !!

dan p

 

[andyc]

Hi and NO !!

I believe that Paul is writing about those who are saved by Grace and the " FALL FROM GRACE " as is writtin in Gal 5:4 !!

dan p

"Saved by grace" is the only gospel.

 

[DAN P]

Dan P,

Thanks for the response.


Yes. Galatians and 1 and 2 Peter were all written to the same audience. That’s the presenting, and I would argue, fatal problem for MAD as this fact disallows the conclusion that Peter and Paul had different gospels as Paul said, in no uncertain terms, that anyone who preached a different gospel to the Galatians deserved to go to hell.


Verse 16 mentions nothing about a Jewish assembly. Paul wrote to the believers in Galatia who were being troubled by judaizers that instructed them that their salvation was dependent upon law keeping in addition to their faith. Paul's only instruction to those judaizers is to emasculate themselves. Paul only had the harshest of condemnations for those who would make salvation dependent upon keeping the Mosaic law, yet some would have us believe that Peter took up his pen to write the same audience approximately 10 years later teaching that obedience to the law was necessary for salvation.

Hi and who wrote 1 and 2 Peter , if not , to a Jewish EKKLESIA /ASSEMBLY and the acknowledges that Paul also wrote to that EKKLESIA , and read 1 Peter 2:9-11 !!

dan p