Who is Bob Enyart?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Poly

Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The ones that I've encouraged to read "The Plot" would usually ask me what it was about ahead of time. I am as vague as possible because it is extremely important that they read it from cover to cover without any part of it being explained, independant of any other part of the book. This puzzles them at first but once they read it, they realize why this is so important and they're glad that they had no preconceived ideas ahead of time as am I when I read it.
 

shilohproject

New member
Originally posted by Jefferson
Scott, you hit the nail right on the head. You're exactly right. This is also the reason why Bob does not have a scripture index in the back of the book and it's also why the titles of the chapters have obscure meanings. The book is designed to be read from cover to cover.
Sounds lika an invitation to an Amway meeting!:shocked:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Thank you for the bone. I plan on ordering the book to Canada soon. There are some articles on the internet critiquing the book. Are they fair in their concerns? Sounds like a fair bit of doctrinal basis is spun from a couple key verses.
 

Lucky

New member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by godrulz
Thank you for the bone. I plan on ordering the book to Canada soon. There are some articles on the internet critiquing the book. Are they fair in their concerns? Sounds like a fair bit of doctrinal basis is spun from a couple key verses.
You're not suggesting that under "the Big Picture" there are only a few key verses are you? :D

So where on the www can I find fair critiques of the book? You can PM me them if you'd rather not post 'em.
 

Jefferson

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Originally posted by godrulz
There are some articles on the internet critiquing the book. Are they fair in their concerns?
A well-researched critique is found HERE

It is written by Hilston, a regular TOL poster and, yes, it is a fair critique.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/theplot.html

Search google Bob Enyart The Plot

I am sure much of Enyart's material is helpful, but the two gospel distinction seems off track. It sounds like there is better alternative exegesis of some key passages.

Initially, I differ on his view of unconditional eternal security and the charismatic gifts.
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
godrulz – I do NOT think Hilston’s review is objective nor accurate. After reading his opening statement, I disagree with Hilston where he said.
After close examination of this book, I am convinced that Enyart has many correct doctrinal concepts, but is missing the theological foundation upon which these doctrines are built, which inevitably results in doctrinal error elsewhere. The Plot is an example of how it is possible to have some pieces of the pie in place, and to have very little, if any, supporting piepan underneath.
And that was AFTER saying
The Plot, a 324-page document by Bob Enyart, presents a well-packaged, detailed, and informative treatment of various mid-Acts doctrines. However, the book is not a thoroughly academic or scholarly endeavor, nor does it appear to be the author's intent. While much of what the author writes aligns closely with what I view as a biblical mid-Acts position, the demonstrable theological underpinnings upon which these doctrines necessarily stand are conspicuously absent.
The Plot is a teaching about what the entire bible teaches! The bible is the basis for the teaching of the Plot. I am an Acts 9er, and if the theological support for that view is not presented in the Plot, I don’t know where it is. Bod’s style of presentation is markedly different, because as Jefferson pointed out, he utilizes a tactic of obscuring the mainline theological treatment so as to remain interesting and biblical without engendering the common, oh, he’s an eternally secure OSAS guy, where one’s presuppositions form drastic and often unfavorable reactions that you might not get if you can teach the teaching in more subtle ways.

I’m convinced that if Jesus Christ came to earth in this day and age disguised as an everyday bible teacher, He could hardly maintain a job, and most would consider Him a despicable “fringe toward heresy” lunatic. The truth is necessarily offensive, especially if it tells you that you are in the wrong. And most people, like say 98% have such a frail sense of objectivity toward the most important things in the Christian’s life, that most any exposure to their error, is met with great resistance and even bitter personal opposition. So there is great wisdom in presenting a teaching from the side door, if you will. If you don’t, over 90% of the time, most folks will dismiss the author or teaching out of hand because of some errant presupposition and petty prejudice.

It almost amazes me at Hilston’s inability to understand this about Bob’s approach, almost, but since I understand Hilston’s critical judgments, it’s not really very hard to figure out. Take his TV and talk show for example. He talks about the issues of the day, something that everyone chats about at work or play, but not the common biblical theological preaching approach. People are very quick to say, I’ll talk about anything but politics and religion, especially after the Christian conservative suggests something against his sensibilities. But the same nay say’er will discuss any number of moral and social current events, if their audience is docile and accepting of their views. People are vain and hypocritical, yet Bob loves them enough to try to reach them. Being salt and light in a world that hates and opposes God presents many challenges, and I think that Bob has a solid grasp of what it takes to avoid some of the most common barriers to entry.

Although I knew for some time that Jefferson does not fully agree with Bob Enyart’s teaching, I had no idea he would think that Hilston’s critique is objective and accurate, it is NOT a fair critique, the opening statements show a serious lack of understanding even prior to examining his particular comments.

Hilston said
1. Further suggested reading: The only item the author lists under this heading is the Bible. While I appreciate the point he appears to be making (i.e., we only need the scriptures), Enyart himself has used myriad sources that he cites throughout his book. Surely, if he has benefitted from extra-biblical sources, why shouldn't others as well?
This is another example of his prejudice against The Plot, and further show’s his disregard for Bob’s attempt at reaching a wider audience, such as the world at large. His point was exactly as he stated, that God’s word is supreme and all other works need to conform to it. And as for the other references that are included throughout the book, people can benefit from and get them throughout the book! Like Jefferson said, Bob purposefully does not have a scripture index, nor a topical index in the back of his book, precisely because that is the first place most people go to weed out the undesirable element. Same basic issue with the reference materials, he used such and such about that?! No way, how stupid. etc. etc. etc.

It’s pretty much like what godrulz has already done, but it is rare to find the sole who will allow his presuppositions to be held at bay until after reviewing the whole story. I can only hope he will give it an objective review.

Hilston concludes saying
However, as it has been abundantly demonstrated, the most fundamental undergirdings of mid-Acts theology are conspicuously absent, including:
1. The administrative hierarchy of God's elect
2. The role of angels
3. The Seven Ones of the Body versus Israel Many
4. The place of ceremonial rites for Israel, and their prohibition for the Body
5. The significance of Body non-ceremonialism
6. The depravity of man
7. The sovereign decrees of God
8. The choosing of the members of the Body before creation
1 and 2 seem a cross between superfluous and strange to the biblical foundation of mid Acts theology, while 3 seems somewhat plausible, but not as though Bob neglected much of what that idea represents. 4, 5 and 7 are well represented in “The Plot” even though perhaps not in full agreement to all of Hilston’s conclusions, while 6 and 8 are in opposition to what Bob (and the bible) teaches.

In summary, Hilston is really disagreeing with Bob based upon his own theological differences and presuppositions. Plainly, Hilston agrees with Mid Acts, since that is his view also, but disagrees with the openness of God so this reaction is purely predictable. If you present a creationism argument to an evolutionist, because it does not fit his mindset for how things really are, the argument may seem compelling to some, but to those enlightened by progressive thinking, evolution renders creationism quite futile and useless. The amount of contradictory presuppositions often becomes so counter productive that genuine objective discourse between two such wildly opposing world views becomes almost impossible.

This new paradigm can NOT be accurately critiqued until one can demonstrate the ability to represent the view without doing injustice to it. When the so called objective reviewer considers what you teach as being a cross between heresy and perhaps blasphemy and certainly harshly condemnable false teaching, it becomes easier to see why such a review is prone to an especially thick and unfair prejudice. I warrant, without even knowing for certain (say 98% certain), that Hilston hated what Bob teaches well before reading The Plot. Once again showing that many well-intentioned and intelligent people hold their presuppositions too tightly.

Given 2 separate reviews, all else the same, when one CAN represent the view without doing violence to it, that review stands a much better chance of being objective. Actually, doing violence while attempting to faithfully represent a teaching eliminates an objective review. That is not saying that Hilston has done violence in his review, I am saying that he has done so on occasion with me about the same teachings.

Consider the following post in review of The Plot that is admittedly not specific to it's many teachings, but highlights the general idea and benefit of the work. And I do no violence in representing what it teaches. Please respond to the points given in favor to that work, don't they seem noteworthy and profitable and in accordance to what the bible teaches about itself?
 
Last edited:

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Reposted with highlight for emphasis from:

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=355194#post355194

Lightson - :) I came to it way later in my Christian walk.

But, the part of Open theism, and Acts9, 12out, not nicer than God, that I always trusted in, was that God’s word is one and true and thus is not divided nor contradictory and thus is quite unlike the common consensus understanding. It always bothered me that Christians go off into any one of dozens of different fanciful directions when it comes to just about every passage and teaching in the bible! At the same time, I knew that it is possible to have biblical clarity/unity, because God teaches and expects us to have it.

It wasn’t until I read Bob Enyart’s most excellent book, The Plot, that I finally found what I have been looking for all of my Christian life. I used to dream of finding the most excellent of reference works that would be helpful and biblically accurate, devotional and technically astute, and found in less then a thousand book library, which might cost something on the order of 5 to 15 thousand dollars.

Instead I got all that and more by buying just one book for less than 50 bucks, and received the most important lessons in just the first 4 chapters of the book. Now, it’s easy to understand God’s word, bible study is a pure joy and I get the golden nuggets all the time. That does not mean that I don’t have a lot of bible study to go, but as I study God’s word, I no longer have the terrible problems that I used to have, I no longer fall for the torrential onslaught of false teachings like I used to as well as everyone else that I know.

First get a solid overview of the entire bible before you jump into the details. The practical outworking of this benefit has been the discovery of two main general lessons. (1) Openness of God, or free will theism, and (2) “accurate” dispensationalism such that prophecy and mystery are two separate programs, that the body of Christ is very different than Israel (the bride of Christ), and the circumcision writings are quite different than the un-circumcision writings.

With just knowing that, I am far far far better off then the person who has read ALL other sort of Christian materials, unless he just read and trusted the bible.

I just can’t say enough good things about Bob Enyart’s ministry of Bible teaching, of course along with all those who helped him see the light as well. Now don’t get me wrong, there is a lot we can learn from in other Christian persuasions, but when it comes to a biblically consistent and faithful understanding from cover to cover, nothing else comes close. Step back and get the big picture, understand the foundational framework that underlines the entire teaching of the bible and by doing so, the many themes and teachings, right down to the doctrinal details all fall effortlessly into their divinely interwoven place.

The bible is truly one and is true and is more marvelous and wonderful if you take it in the way it was purposed to be understood. Curses to man’s common Christian thinking, it is the way toward error and false teaching. Amen to God’s word rightly divided and unashamedly understood.

And you?
 
Last edited:

Jefferson

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Originally posted by godrulz
I am sure much of Enyart's material is helpful, but the two gospel distinction seems off track. It sounds like there is better alternative exegesis of some key passages.

Initially, I differ on his view of unconditional eternal security and the charismatic gifts.
Does this mean you are not going to read The Plot?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Originally posted by Poly
The Fall is great. I liked the study on Timothy and Galatians as well.
What videos do you have? I have:
Mt. Moriah
Predestination vs. Freewill
Does God exist
Divorce and remarriage
Get out of the Matrix

Not to mention the many tapes we have of his shows.
I don't have but one video. :(
Due to some poor money management practices in my early 20's (my pre-Enyart years) I haven't been able to afford to purchase the videos. It's been more than I could afford to get the monthly Bible studies for the last couple of months. But now that I have nearly all my debt paid off and I have this new job, I should be able to start collecting them all. :cool:
The one video I do have is the one where Bob debates a Calvinist. I was virtually kicked out of the Sunday school class at Tulsa Bible Church for bringing up the arguments presented in this video. That was a very disappointing event. When presented with a few questions that they couldn't answer, I was told "Calvinism is our 'church position' and that's not going to change. If you don't like it find somewhere else to go, or keep your mouth shut." I chose the later. It's really to bad too, because that church is full of really wonderful Christian people, but I just couldn't stomach the Calvinism that permeates throughout their leadership.

Well, on to more positive things...

Does anyone know when Bob's sequel to The Plot is coming out? I've heard him mention it a few times, but haven't seen anything about when it might be finished.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
In fairness, I would like to read the book.

I am sure it builds a case that seems compelling (as can any well written book). I suspect that a proper exegesis of Gal. 2:7 (and the other few key verses) do not explicitly support his conclusions (there are better interpretations). I hope they are not just proof texts to support a preconceived system.

I agree with 1way that presenting teachings with clarity, rather than a doctrinal thesis like Hilston seems to want, is legitimate.

It sounds like water baptism is not a practice at Enyart's Denver church? Or is baptism ok, just not necessary for salvation? Don't just say 'read the book'. I get the gist of the concept, and find it weak to relegate Christian baptism to the same category as Jewish or pagan baptisms.

I can't help feel there are exegetical and theological concerns with the way Enyart develops some of his key ideas.

Are there other significant teachers or churches or books that come to similar conclusions (not that that indicates truth)?

I have run across many teachings in the last 25 years. This seems to be something not commonly known.

I will read the book, before forming my final conclusions.

So far, my hunch is that I will disagree with eternal security (I believe in conditional eternal security), charismatic gifts (I am Pentecostal by experience), no baptism (I do not believe it is necessary for salvation, but is a step of obedience in discipleship), and two Gospels (grace/law issues). I am supportive of Open Theism.

Unless we are joining the cult of Enyart, I think it is possible to be biblically consistent and believe some of his views, without accepting all of them. I doubt he has solved every theological issue with a simple manuscript. Those who like and defend him will disagree. It is unlikely any man, denomination, or church will be infallible in all their beliefs. I suspect there are exegetical and logical mistakes that could be found that would question some of the premises and conclusions.

It is always helpful to look at various views as we try to formulate what Scripture truly teaches. It is difficult to be objective. I hope Bob has a solid grounding in the original languages, and is not just relying on NKJV. Many Christian and cultic errors fall apart with a solid grammatical, historical, contextual, theological approach to Scripture.
 
Last edited:

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Originally posted by godrulz
http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/theplot.html

Search google Bob Enyart The Plot

I am sure much of Enyart's material is helpful, but the two gospel distinction seems off track. It sounds like there is better alternative exegesis of some key passages.

Initially, I differ on his view of unconditional eternal security and the charismatic gifts.

Which is precisely why those of us who have read The Plot were not giving you the details in advance!
It will not be possible for you to read the book without instinctively placing up walls in your mind when you are presented with logic that even sounds like it might lead to a conclusion that you disagree with.
I agree that is isn't a salvation issue for you to read and understand this book, at least not when it comes to your own salvation. But words/ideas have consequences, and what we believe drives our actions, so your having read, understood, believed, and applied the ideas presented in The Plot could very well have a dramatic effect on whether or not someone else is saved.
Jefferson really did you a grave disservice by posting that link! (Although, I'm sure his intentions were good.)
I have been impressed more than once by your ability to think clearly about various issues (Open Theism in particular), and so I urge you to please set aside whatever preconceived ideas you have and read The Plot with an open mind. Judge the arguments made on their own merits, not based on the conclusions they lead to. I will pray that you have the courage to be convinced by Scripture and by clear reason and nothing else, even if that means leaving your comfort zone! Or to put it another way…

BE RIGHT AND RISK THE CONSEQUENCES!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Thank you for your time and direction. How many of those links are directly or indirectly connected to Enyart and his associates?
 
Last edited:

Brellix

New member
First off, I send my thanks to Turbo and Poly for thinking to include me in this group. I have read "The Plot" and believe that pastor Enyart is an excellent teacher. Reading this book will lift the veil of confusion and give a person an amazing sense of clarity in their life.



That being said.....On to
V
V
V
Originally posted by Scott
In answering the original question: "who is Bob Enyart?"...

I've read through the posts in this thread and it seems he is a man who has been placed on a very high pedestal. Especially by those who agree with his positions. Is there anything special about Bob? He's just a guy with views like every other guy with views. The only difference is probably his ability to communicate his views. Since people tend to lift up these type of people onto their shoulders and cry "look at this guy"... it's not surprising that he has his own thread(s).

^^ This is an experiment.


Do any other "list makers" besides myself find it funny how skeptics of "The Plot" always seem to demand a thorough explanation of its contents, before they will agree to read it?

I'd bet the farm that these same people would not require the thorough contents of a Dean Koontz, Stephen King, or "insert popular author here" book before blindly rushing out to buy it.

Makes one wonder why, doesn't it?

Might it be due to the fact that the contents of "The Plot" will force them to acknowledge the truth that they so desparately desire to remain willfully ignorant of?

:doh:


That being said, any of you cliche` wielders out there
that want to offer your opinion(s), feel free to defend them in front of me after you have read "The Plot".

:p



Brellix
 

Jefferson

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Originally posted by godrulz
Thank you for your time and direction. How many of those links are directly or indirectly connected to Enyart and his associates?
None.

But I can give you one link that is affiliated with Enyart. It's a site run by Bob's former pastor. It's http:www.biblicalanswers.com
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Scott

New member
Originally posted by Brellix
Reading this book will lift the veil of confusion and give a person an amazing sense of clarity in their life.

What veil of confusion? Your approach suggests that all those without Enyart's knowledge are confused. That's ridiculous. I think that Enyart has built a model upon which macro concepts of scripture can cling without APPARENT contradiction. Can somebody else do the same? Sure. Does this mean that Enyart is 100% correct? No... be careful. He's just a guy with an idea. He's not the Holy Spirit, nor is there a book in the bible called "The Plot".

Also...

Originally posted by Brellix
Do any other "list makers" besides myself find it funny how skeptics of "The Plot" always seem to demand a thorough explanation of its contents, before they will agree to read it?

You quoted me above this statement of yours. I'd like to know where in that quote of mine is a "list"? How I can be a "list maker", and how it was skeptical of "The Plot"... Nor did I "demand an explanation of it's contents". I think you have me confused with GodRulz.

I am saying that there seems to be a noticable group of hard core Enyart supporters here and I am very curious as to their motives. That was ALL I was getting at.

I hope that you use better logic in interpreting Enyarts works than you do at interpretting my comments.:confused:

EDIT: I of course have never read The Plot. So, I won't pass any judgements on it. I will pass judgements on what I have read, including the posts in this thread. Also, I've had plenty of debate with Knight and the other Open Theists to know much of what the Plot purports... Which I have found I agree with some, and disagree with others. AGAIN, does anybody here really think that Enyart's knowledge as revealed in "The Plot" is infallible? I ask this question because it's an indicator of motive.
 
Last edited:

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Jefferson: I already had Hill's site bookmarked. I find much of it helpful. Not having formal education does not make one more spiritual or less prone to error.

As a paramedic, I think I grasp much of medicine, but there are things I am ignorant of that I do not even realize because I do not have the tools and training of a doctor. I hope he has a solid base in the original languages, and not just NKJV.

Scott: I think you have words of wisdom. There is a danger in putting to much weight on anyone's teachings/writings (cf. R.C. Sproul fans...I like many of his works, but I simply am not Calvinistic in understanding). It is possible to glean ideas about Enyart's beliefs without reading The Plot. I know some of what he believes, without knowing all the whys of it. I do not understand the reluctance to talk about eternal security or baptism for example on the merits of Scripture. Enyart's perspective is not the only kid on the block that needs to be factored in to arrive at conclusions.

Until we read the whole book, I agree that our understanding of his views and critical credibility is limited. I plan on ordering the book next week. Asking questions in advance should not lead to snubbing or silence by his supporters.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top