ECT Unconditional Election

[chrysostom]

The acronym TUPLIP is often used to represent the five points of Calvinism and the U is unconditional election.
Does election mean that you are saved?
Does unconditional mean that your salvation has nothing to do with what you have done or will do?
These two questions are directed [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION]
Thank you for your time and consideration

 

[Tambora]

Does election mean that you are saved?

Nah.

The Lord Jesus Christ was elect.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The acronym TUPLIP is often used to represent the five points of Calvinism and the U is unconditional election.
Does election mean that you are saved?

If you are a heretical hyper-Calvinist, e.g., beloved57 or Nanja, then the answer would be yes, for these minority view folk believe in the notion of eternal justification...that is, the ordained elect, have never been under the wrath of God, contrary to Eph. 2:3, for example.

We do not know who the elect are as this belongs to the secret will of God (Deut. 29:29). If one is elect, one will be regenerated (born again) from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News and the belief coming from said hearing. It is at this point in time that one is saved and continues to be saved during their walk of faith.

Does unconditional mean that your salvation has nothing to do with what you have done or will do?

From God's perspective this is correct. God's setting His preference upon another before time (God's love before time) was not dependent upon any foreseen merit in that person. God was not peeking ahead down the corridors of time to see who would choose wisely and then ratifying their choice. If God were to act thusly, He has effectively made Himself a debtor to His creatures and we know God is a debtor to none. The plain facts are that we do not know why God chose this or that person, we only know that all that God does is according to His own good counsel. Going beyond what is revealed of God's will is forbidden and exercises in fruitless and often scurrilous conjecture.

Since God is sovereign, those He has chosen before time will never not be saved. They will also never lose that which was given to them. In other words, the elect are God's workmanship (Eph. 2:10); it is His doing that stirs up the faithful such that they will bear fruit in evidence of their salvation. So in this sense there is a component of what I am doing and will do that gives evidence of my salvation, but that sense should not be taken so far as to ignore exactly Who is behind my willing and doing (Phil. 2:13).

AMR

 

[chrysostom]

If you are a heretical hyper-Calvinist, e.g., beloved57 or Nanja, then the answer would be yes, for these minority view folk believe in the notion of eternal justification...that is, the ordained elect, have never been under the wrath of God, contrary to Eph. 2:3, for example.

We do not know who the elect are as this belongs to the secret will of God (Deut. 29:29). If one is elect, one will be regenerated (born again) from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News and the belief coming from said hearing. It is at this point in time that one is saved and continues to be saved during their walk of faith.


From God's perspective this is correct. God's setting His preference upon another before time (God's love before time) was not dependent upon any foreseen merit in that person. God was not peeking ahead down the corridors of time to see who would choose wisely and then ratifying their choice. If God were to act thusly, He has effectively made Himself a debtor to His creatures and we know God is a debtor to none. The plain facts are that we do not know why God chose this or that person, we only know that all that God does is according to His own good counsel. Going beyond what is revealed of God's will is forbidden and exercises in fruitless and often scurrilous conjecture.

Since God is sovereign, those He has chosen before time will never not be saved. They will also never lose that which was given to them. In other words, the elect are God's workmanship (Eph. 2:10); it is His doing that stirs up the faithful such that they will bear fruit in evidence of their salvation. So in this sense there is a component of what I am doing and will do that gives evidence of my salvation, but that sense should not be taken so far as to ignore exactly Who is behind my willing and doing (Phil. 2:13).

AMR

Thank you, is it possible to be saved if you are not one of the elect?

 

[Danoh]

If you are a heretical hyper-Calvinist, e.g., beloved57 or Nanja, then the answer would be yes, for these minority view folk believe in the notion of eternal justification...that is, the ordained elect, have never been under the wrath of God, contrary to Eph. 2:3, for example.

We do not know who the elect are as this belongs to the secret will of God (Deut. 29:29). If one is elect, one will be regenerated (born again) from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News and the belief coming from said hearing. It is at this point in time that one is saved and continues to be saved during their walk of faith.


From God's perspective this is correct. God's setting His preference upon another before time (God's love before time) was not dependent upon any foreseen merit in that person. God was not peeking ahead down the corridors of time to see who would choose wisely and then ratifying their choice. If God were to act thusly, He has effectively made Himself a debtor to His creatures and we know God is a debtor to none. The plain facts are that we do not know why God chose this or that person, we only know that all that God does is according to His own good counsel. Going beyond what is revealed of God's will is forbidden and exercises in fruitless and often scurrilous conjecture.

Since God is sovereign, those He has chosen before time will never not be saved. They will also never lose that which was given to them. In other words, the elect are God's workmanship (Eph. 2:10); it is His doing that stirs up the faithful such that they will bear fruit in evidence of their salvation. So in this sense there is a component of what I am doing and will do that gives evidence of my salvation, but that sense should not be taken so far as to ignore exactly Who is behind my willing and doing (Phil. 2:13).

AMR

AMR, good to see you around; dear brother

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Thank you, is it possible to be saved if you are not one of the elect?

You are welcome.

To be saved and not be among the elect would be an error along the lines of the logical law of non-contradiction. One cannot be elect and non-elect at the same time and in the same sense.

A is elect. Therefore A will ultimately be saved. A is not elect. Therefore, A will not ultimately be saved.

The elect are the chosen one's destined by God to be ultimately saved, hence, if one is saved, one is elect. If one is not saved, one is not elect, for the very word means the chosen ones.

We should not shy away from the word, elect. Examining how Scripture uses the word is instructive. Sometimes the word is used in a non-salvific sense, that is, as in the election of a people, the Israelites, to bring forth the oracles of God (the Bible).

Spoiler

Matthew 24:22
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Mark 13:22
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mark 13:27
And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke 18:7
And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 9:11
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Romans 11:28
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

1 Timothy 5:21
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 John 1:1
The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

2 John 1:13
The children of your elect sister greet you.

Salvifically speaking, we may ask Who are the elect? The answer is that the elect are all those—an amount no man can number—that sincerely (Matthew 7:22) call upon the name of the Lord, for all that do so will not be turned away or lost to the Lord. For example, see Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

AMR, good to see you around; dear brother

Kind words, thank you.

Excursus: I have been out of pocket lately dealing with the Windows© operating system Anniversary Update and the many errors the update created. I think I am now the only person on the planet that has a completely error-free Windows© event log on my laptop.

To see what I mean, right-clicking your Windows Start button, select Run, and enter:
C:\Windows\System32\eventvwr.exe

Once the event viewer appears select the Windows Logs item and examine the various entries looking for entries tagged "Error".

AMR

 

[chrysostom]

If one is elect, one will be regenerated (born again) from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News and the belief coming from said hearing.

I am not sure what this means but it seems to be the only thing separating you from the hyper-Calvinists. Am I right?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I am not sure what this means but it seems to be the only thing separating you from the hyper-Calvinists. Am I right?

You would be very incorrect. Sigh.

Did you review my previous response that included a link to my discussion of the many errors of hyper-Calvinism here? Had you done so, you would have your answer.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I am not sure what this means ...

Let me take it piece by piece...

"If one is elect, one will be regenerated (born again) from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News "

This means that an elect person is ordinarily born again from the hearing of the Gospel declared. The promiscuous preaching of the Gospel is the means by which God brings His children into the Kingdom. Just as a hammer is the means of seating a nail in wood, the Gospel is the means of bringing a person into the Kingdom.

"and the belief coming from said hearing."

This means that following their instantaneous re-birth, the person now possesses the moral ability to believe (e.g., Eze. 36:26) in that very Gospel they have heard, and will not not believe. Faith is the first-fruit of one's regeneration (re-birth). Repentance is the fruit of that salvific faith.

AMR

 

[chrysostom]

You would be very incorrect. Sigh.

Did you review my previous response that included a link to my discussion of the many errors of hyper-Calvinism here? Had you done so, you would have your answer.

AMR

Yes I did read the links and found the discussion on eternal security very interesting.

If beloved57 is one of the elect, will he be saved?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Yes I did read the links and found the discussion on eternal security very interesting.

Thank you.

If beloved57 is one of the elect, will he be saved?

Yes, if he has not been saved already.

There are not a few among the faithful that are confused about matters of the faith and we should be hesitant to declare them lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent without very careful and prayerful examination of their views. I tend to give the self-professing believer the benefit of the doubt if and until they show themselves to be beyond the bounds of orthodox Christianity and therein professing something they do not possess.

AMR

 

[chrysostom]

Thank you.


Yes, if he has not been saved already.

There are not a few among the faithful that are confused about matters of the faith and we should be hesitant to declare them lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent without very careful and prayerful examination of their views. I tend to give the self-professing believer the benefit of the doubt if and until they show themselves to be beyond the bounds of orthodox Christianity and therein professing something they do not possess.

AMR

Thank you. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the time that you have taken to carefully explain your beliefs.
In the past you have been very helpful to me an others on how to do things on this forum. I wanted to thank you for that as well before I go too far in testing your patience.
I do have a tendency to oversimplify but I would like to state my understanding of how you differ with beloved57 and that is only when a person is saved. You both agree that an elect person is saved or will be saved regardless of what they do. Is that true?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I do have a tendency to oversimplify but I would like to state my understanding of how you differ with beloved57 and that is only when a person is saved. You both agree that an elect person is saved or will be saved regardless of what they do. Is that true?

I do not think "we both agree" works here. I appreciate your attempt to be patient and what not, but if you are headed to some point you want to make, I think you should just speak plainly and see where things go from there.

The orthodox Reformed (my view) believe an elect person is not saved until he or she comes to faith. Until that time, he or she remains under the wrath of God (e.g. Eph. 2:1-5). The hyper-Calvinist, b57, would violently disagree with this view as they hold to "eternal justification" explained in one of my previous posts. The Hyper-Calvinist denies an important aspect of the teachings of justification:

The WCF summarizes Scripture on this point at 11:4:

4. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, (Gal. 3:8, 1 Pet. 1:2, 19-20, Rom. 8:30) and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise for their justification: (Gal. 4:4, 1 Tim. 2:6, Rom. 4:25) nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them. (Col. 1:21-22, Gal. 2:16, Tit. 3:4-7)

Until they are actually justified, the elect remain under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" and "election is unto salvation." The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before said time (as Eph 2:1-5 makes quite clear) the unregenerated elect are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

There is no "seed of election" in the elect before they are called. The elect are gathered into Christ's flock by a call not immediately at birth, and not all at the same time, but according to as it pleases God to dispense His grace to them. Before the elect are gathered into the Kingdom, they wander scattered in the wilderness common to all. The elect do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God's special mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death. If you look upon these persons, you will see Adam's offspring, all of whom partake of the common corruption of the masses. The fact that the unregenerated elect are not carried to utter and even desperate impiety is not due to any innate goodness of their own but because the eye of God watches over their safety and his hand is outstretched to them.

The Hyper-Calvinist view of eternal justification leads them to deny the need for evangelization. Yet, Reformed theology and the doctrine of election is not a hindrance to evangelism, but rather a spur. The doctrine of election does not mean that men do not need the gospel. The Gospel is God's way of telling us that He has already paved the way for us to bring the gospel to all. God's means serve to meet His ends.

There are many other areas of disagreement between the Hyper-Calvinist and the Calvinist. So to say that the above is the only difference is, well, incorrect.

AMR

 

[chrysostom]

I do not think "we both agree" works here. I appreciate your attempt to be patient and what not, but if you are headed to some point you want to make, I think you should just speak plainly and see where things go from there.

The orthodox Reformed (my view) believe an elect person is not saved until he or she comes to faith. Until that time, he or she remains under the wrath of God

If that person dies in a car crash before coming to faith, are they not saved?

 

[Clete]

The acronym TUPLIP is often used to represent the five points of Calvinism and the U is unconditional election.
Does election mean that you are saved?
Does unconditional mean that your salvation has nothing to do with what you have done or will do?
These two questions are directed [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION]
Thank you for your time and consideration

Calvin must have been a "heretical hyper-Calvinist"

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

“But since he foresees future events [including someone's salvation] only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)
​

Further, The Westminster Confession of Faith states...

"God has predestined and foreordained some men and angels to everlasting life out of His free grace and love without any foresight of faith or works in man or perseverance in either of them, and others are foreordained to everlasting death and the number of either is so certain and definite that it cannot be increased or diminished." (Chap. III, art. 3,4 &5; Chap. X, art. 2)​

The Confession of Faith of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A. says...

"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass … By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite it cannot be either increased or diminished." (Chap. III)​

I could quote Pink and Clark and several other prominent Calvinists but it isn't necessary. These are source documents that are commonly cited as the defining documents of what Calvinism is.

Anyone who denies Unconditional Election as presented here is not a Calvinist and has abandoned the clear and unavoidable logical conclusions that must be drawn from their truly foundational first principles such as Immutability, Impassibility, Absolute Sovereignty, etc. In short, the quasi-Calvinist who wants to cherry pick which doctrines to accept doesn't get such a luxury. You throw out the bath water, out goes the baby.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

If that person dies in a car crash before coming to faith, are they not saved?

In my view such a scenario is impossible as it is contrary to the full counsel of the teachings of Scripture as relates to believers and the soverignty of God. Are we to assume that there are things happening on this earth beyond the purview and control of God? Are we to assume that God's redemptive plan set forth in His decree overlooked temporal events? Of course not. The God who knows the number of hairs on our heads or when a bird falls to the ground is not caught unawares.

None of those given to Our Lord by God the Father for whom Our Lord came, suffered unto, died, and was resurrected in victory over the curse of Adam's sin can be lost to Him (John 6:37-39).

Why?

Our Lord's active and passive obedience actually accomplished what He was sent here to do. It was not a potential accomplishment that may or may not happen depending upon circumstances, but a actual accomplishment.

AMR

 

[Nihilo]

Does election mean that you are saved?

No, it means you will be saved.

Does unconditional mean that your salvation has nothing to do with what you have done or will do?

Yes.

 

[musterion]

heretical...minority view...of eternal justification...that is, the ordained elect, have never been under the wrath of God, contrary to Eph. 2:3, for example.
AMR

The elect do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God's special mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death.

:AMR:

No practical difference.

 

[chrysostom]

I do not think "we both agree" works here. I appreciate your attempt to be patient and what not, but if you are headed to some point you want to make, I think you should just speak plainly and see where things go from there.

So what's the good news? You might be one of the elect? The bad news is there is nothing you can do about it. You can only surmise that you might be one of the elect.
I can't think of a more dangerous belief. It doesn't matter what you do. You can try to be a good person which may convince you and others that you must be one of the elect. Which brings me to my final question.

Is it possible to lead a good life if you are not one of the elect?