ECT Unconditional Election

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So what's the good news? You might be one of the elect? The bad news is there is nothing you can do about it. You can only surmise that you might be one of the elect.
The Good News is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and never lost to Him (John 6:37, in the context of John 6:44,65). That is the duty of all mankind. No one knows who is elect and who is not elect, so hiding behind this is a chimera. All men know of God. Period. That they have rejected what they know for a lie about Who they know is no fault of God.

Our Lord stands ready to receive any who come to Him. But sinners hate Him and do not come. They slam the door in His face, not vice-versa. But does this frustrate God’s plan? Not at all. God has chosen to go one step further with those whom He has chosen. He not only offers them Christ, but Christ goes and fetches them. The Good Shepherd calls His sheep and gathers them in Himself.

Your position is along the lines “If election were true, then the non-elect never have a chance of salvation.”

In one sense, this is exactly what Scripture teaches. No man has a chance of salvation for the simple reason that there is no such thing as chance. God has foreordained whatever will come to pass. There are no coincidences or chance. Furthermore, this can be taken in another way. God offers salvation to all who hear the Gospel, but let's not forget that no one deserves salvation. No one—neither the elect nor the non-elect—deserve a “second chance” (after Adam's fall), as it were.

At its root, this objection of yours insinuates that God cheats. He stacks the deck. Well, you have a false picture to paint. Your view pictures an unelected person chiding Our Lord and excusing himself at Judgment Day, “You can’t send me to Hell. I never had a chance. You cheated.” That’s blasphemy. The unelected never wanted to come to Christ, so they will get exactly what they did want.

God’s ordaining of the reprobate does not prohibit them from acting according their desires and intentions. Per the very decree of God, they are morally free agents, with the liberty of spontaneity. They choose to hate God. Their ability to choose according to their greatest inclinations when they so choose was decreed by God, else no such ability to choose would even exist. No one is going to hell who wants to be in Heaven. Try to absorb this important point: God's decree includes the moral ability to choose according to one's greatest inclinations. The decree of God includes this moral ability, not precludes it.

God has left the remainder of the fallen mass of humanity to their own means and their justly deserved ends. These are the reprobate. From the total inability of their sinful natures, the very efficient cause of reprobation, the reprobate will reject the Good News, all the while using the very same free moral agency that the elect possessed. Again, God is not forcing people who want to go to Heaven to go to Hell.

And to the unstated notion in your objection that election means God is showing privilege, let me state that no man deserves privileges. Is it wrong for a parent to leave an inheritance to his child? Is it wrong for God to bestow the free gift of salvation on someone, when no man deserves it? Such an objection is not just against election but against grace (unmerited favor). The objection preys on guilt and sentiment rather than truth. It overlooks the wonderful truth that election and salvation are privileges, free and undeserved gifts.

There is much warrant from Scripture that teaches us that God is free to not extend mercy to everyone. For example, Paul speaks to the matter in Romans, and we need only look to God speaking to Moses. God makes it plainly clear that He is not a universally merciful God for everyone, for He retains His prerogative to distribute mercy, without any pre-conditions other than the counsel of His own will, that is, where He sees fit to do so: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. I think it is quite clear that when God spoke these words, He was also claiming being merciful does not mean He must extend mercy to everyone. A holy God confronted with fallen mankind owes it nothing but His justice of eternal damnation. God could have extended mercy to but one person, refusing all others, and yet we would still call Him merciful. This is because there is nothing about being merciful that requires mercy to be always or universally dispensed.


Before we are saved we are but criminals against God, caught with weapons in our hands. Sinners deserve to be punished, not pitied. God owes election and salvation to no man. God does indeed love all men as creatures made in His image, but He has justly reserved His special grace for the elect. Is a man unloving towards all men because he has a special love for his wife? Hardly, in fact, quite the opposite. Such a man would be unloving if he loved her the same as all others.

Focus on the revealed will of God and your duty. Leave the secret things of God to Him alone. When God shuts His mouth so should we all.


I can't think of a more dangerous belief. It doesn't matter what you do. You can try to be a good person which may convince you and others that you must be one of the elect. Which brings me to my final question.
Yes, your erroneous conclusion is often used as a rationale for failing to do one's duty is dangerous, eternally so. :AMR:

Is it possible to lead a good life if you are not one of the elect?
A good final question to wrap up the topic and bring it to closure.

If we define good as seeking the righteousness of God, then, no, a non-elect person cannot lead a good life. All the unbeliever's acts of civil good, such as giving to charity, walking the old lady across the road, feeding the poor, and so on are never done with the goal of bringing glory to God. These acts are but manifest examples of the hatred of God by the non-believer borne of their own self-serving motives. The moral law of God serves to limit the depravity of mankind and in that sense, performing acts that comply with these laws are good for the world around us. None, however satisfy God's demands upon each and every person such that would bring merit to the unbeliever's situation before the throne of judgment.


AMR
 

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The Good News is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and never lost to Him (John 6:37, in the context of John 6:44,65). That is the duty of all mankind. No one knows who is elect and who is not elect, so hiding behind this is a chimera. All men know of God. Period. That they have rejected what they know for a lie about Who they know is no fault of God.

Our Lord stands ready to receive any who come to Him. But sinners hate Him and do not come. They slam the door in His face, not vice-versa. But does this frustrate God’s plan? Not at all. God has chosen to go one step further with those whom He has chosen. He not only offers them Christ, but Christ goes and fetches them. The Good Shepherd calls His sheep and gathers them in Himself.
AMR

No. Not "sinners". Wicked people. I know too many Christians who are sinners and you do as well __ Christians who have no understanding of overcoming and the reason why the law of the flesh, that wars against the law of God, remains present with them irrespective of the new birth from above as the means God allows to prove men for election...

I am surprised you didn't know that, AMR.
 

chrysostom

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Is it possible to lead a good life if you are not one of the elect?

If we define good as seeking the righteousness of God, then, no, a non-elect person cannot lead a good life. All the unbeliever's acts of civil good, such as giving to charity, walking the old lady across the road, feeding the poor, and so on are never done with the goal of bringing glory to God. These acts are but manifest examples of the hatred of God by the non-believer borne of their own self-serving motives. The moral law of God serves to limit the depravity of mankind and in that sense, performing acts that comply with these laws are good for the world around us. None, however satisfy God's demands upon each and every person such that would bring merit to the unbeliever's situation before the throne of judgment.

A simple no won't do. A redefinition of good is required. Jesus gave us a good one. Love God and your neighbor. The truth is simple and short.
 

TulipBee

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If that person dies in a car crash before coming to faith, are they not saved?
to me, i believe God will arrange the elected person to be saved. meaning there will be no crash yet till he is saved. thats why Gods angels lightly kicks the car's tire a mile up the road and makes the car miss you by an inch 5 minutes later. this is what I mean by God arranges circumstances around the person without touching his free will.

13880119_10206969941312095_8705488215534391008_n.jpg
 
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TulipBee

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So what's the good news? You might be one of the elect? The bad news is there is nothing you can do about it. You can only surmise that you might be one of the elect.
I can't think of a more dangerous belief. It doesn't matter what you do. You can try to be a good person which may convince you and others that you must be one of the elect. Which brings me to my final question.

Is it possible to lead a good life if you are not one of the elect?
i think the whole point is that men don't want God to touch thier wills or else. that else is what started this popular topic. this debate will never end cause God keep touching men's wills when all mankind doesn't want to be bothered in the first place being sinners.
even the ancient eastern beliefs teaches calvinism. Bruce Lee said he fights without fighting. i understand what he means. calvinists believes in being a robot with being a robot and i can explain. Christians just dont think deep enough. RCCism and onenessism don't think deeply. they just follow what men tells them to do.
 

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These are the elect, Those who will rule and reign with Christ:

"And she [the uncompromised church of Jesus Christ] brought forth a [multi-memembered body] man-child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child [this selected body of believers] was caught up unto God, and to his throne. "And when the dragon. . . . persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. . . and went [proceded forth] to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

This to start at the beginning of the last half of the 7 yr period of the tribulation.


Rev 12:17 (KJV)
Rev 12:13 (KJV)
Rev 12:5 (KJV)
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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A simple no won't do. A redefinition of good is required. Jesus gave us a good one. Love God and your neighbor. The truth is simple and short.
Your final question to me concerned the non-elect. The non-elect are incapable of loving God or loving their neighbor as we understand what loving our neighbor means in believer's terms. Nothing in my response is contrary to Our Lord's summary of the two tables of the Law that you noted, so I do not get your presumed issue with my answer. It was a very simple, no, with care taken to make sure we are all on the same page when it comes to words like "good".

Is our discussion completed now?

AMR
 

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we know beloved57 believes Jesus is also an angel but I'm surprised to find a TOL member list him as a JW. I didnt know there are any types of calvinism in the JW denomination.
He may be many things odd but I do not think being a JW is one of them. ;)

AMR
 

chrysostom

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Is our discussion completed now?

AMR

I think so but I would like to share with you my favorite part of the bible. You will only find it in the NAB version which uses the word test. It explains what we are doing here. We are being tested. Adam and Eve were tested to see if they would obey. That was the only purpose of that apple tree.

Daniel 12:10 NAB

"Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall."

You could use this passage to support your views but that would prove you don't understand. Thanks again for your time and efforts.
 

Cross Reference

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I think so but I would like to share with you my favorite part of the bible. You will only find it in the NAB version which uses the word test. It explains what we are doing here. We are being tested. Adam and Eve were tested to see if they would obey. That was the only purpose of that apple tree.

Daniel 12:10 NAB

"Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall."

You could use this passage to support your views but that would prove you don't understand. Thanks again for your time and efforts.

Do you think of yourself as a disciple of Christ?
 

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I don't even know what that means

Then why this if you don't understand?:

Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
I think so but I would like to share with you my favorite part of the bible. You will only find it in the NAB version which uses the word test. It explains what we are doing here. We are being tested. Adam and Eve were tested to see if they would obey. That was the only purpose of that apple tree.

Daniel 12:10 NAB

"Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall."

You could use this passage to support your views but that would prove you don't understand. Thanks again for your time and efforts.
 

chrysostom

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Then why this if you don't understand?:

why do you ask me such questions? -
do you want to know what I believe? -
I believe Jesus the only Son of God suffered and died to we might be saved -
what does that make me, a chrisitan, I think so -
what would you call it?
 

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why do you ask me such questions? -
do you want to know what I believe? -
I believe Jesus the only Son of God suffered and died to we might be saved -
what does that make me, a chrisitan, I think so -
what would you call it?

A maybe, 'just saved' Christian that has no idea of why.
 

chrysostom

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Interesting that you know enough to understand what you aren't so why have so much mouth about others on a Christian forum? What are you here for except to sow discord.

I am here to expose the wolves in sheep's clothing:
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the ones who believe in predestination
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the ones who don't believe in work
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the ones who think they are saved
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the ones who don't think Jesus is God
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and for those who might be interested, my interpretation of the apocalypse
 
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