ECT Unconditional Election

chrysostom

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However, the sanctifying works of the Holy Spirit in the regenerated believer (Galatians 5:20-22), are vital and necessary and must be practiced if one calls upon the name of the Lord.

Not in order to obtain salvation. No. Justification (pardon from sin) comes by faith and the grace of God, only.

But good works verify the believers' profession of faith. Our conduct verifies our witness to God's saving grace. Our actions produced by faith build upon each other, bringing knowledge of the deep truths of God and establish a wonderful state of assurance. Obedience and love of God's Word brings us freedom.

so election is unconditional but salvation is not?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I think so but I would like to share with you my favorite part of the bible. You will only find it in the NAB version which uses the word test. It explains what we are doing here. We are being tested. Adam and Eve were tested to see if they would obey. That was the only purpose of that apple tree.
No one should dispute that Adam was placed on probation to "do this and live", a Covenant of Works, that he failed to perform. The root error of so many lies within what one views the results of that failure entail. To the Reformed the results are that all are born sinners and sin because they are sinners from birth. To all non-Reformed the results are that all are born able to sin and become sinners when they sin, which, of course, they all do. In effect, the latter deny God's imputation of sin to all Adam's progeny and hold onto the notion of some seed of prevenient grace still existing within Adam's progeny such that they are morally able to choose wisely.

This one point lies at the root of all the differences within groups of Christendom. Either fallen man is able to do what he ought to do or he is not able to do what he ought to do until God acts firstly. The Reformed stand with the latter as the clearest teachings of Holy Writ.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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the church does not teach tulip

Not that I agree with him, but you would do well to review this bit by Akin more carefully:

http://jimmyakin.com/a-tiptoe-through-tulip

Then again, keep this in mind: http://jimmyakin.com/2007/01/thomist_or_moli.html

In other words, it is quite possible for a Calvinist of sorts to embrace Romanism as long as he or she is willing to dilute the doctrines of grace. Such was my personal path out of Romanism over thirty years ago: Thomism, Jansenism, So. Baptist (ordained), and finally full-orbed Reformed Presbyterian (PCA).

Nowadays, most Romanists are either Thomists or Molinists, both views being permitted by Rome and denunciation of one or the other forbidden. And once one develops a taste for Thomism, flirting with or embracing Jansenism is often soon to follow. Despite its denunciation by Rome's See, Jansenism is quite alive and well within Romanism, including among discerning Jesuits who are obligated publicly to cavil against it.

I doubt you have a full grasp of Rome's permitted Thomism, given that you once wrote:

chrysostom said:
you won't find me in church
...so I can understand the lack of knowledge behind the statement you made above. :AMR:

As a former Jesuit, I have walked the path you now walk. Step off Rome's treadmill and you just may find your faith more properly grounded.

AMR
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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he is a mess
Indeed. I think some folks who proffer up denunciations of this or that are unawares of how often they appear double-minded (James 1:8), for they do not pay attention to their past statements or assertions and think no one is actually reading and taking note of what they have previously posted.

AMR
 

Danoh

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Indeed. I think some folks who proffer up denunciations of this or that are unawares of how often they appear double-minded (James 1:8), for they do not pay attention to their past statements or assertions and think no one is actually reading and taking note of what they have previously posted.

AMR

Ain't that the truth...
 

Nihilo

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I think so but I would like to share with you my favorite part of the bible. You will only find it in the NAB version which uses the word test. It explains what we are doing here. We are being tested. Adam and Eve were tested to see if they would obey. That was the only purpose of that apple tree.

Daniel 12:10 NAB

"Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall."

You could use this passage to support your views but that would prove you don't understand. Thanks again for your time and efforts.
I pray:
"Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Here is the Lord's prayer as recorded in the NAB:
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one."

That's a curious rendering, the contrast between the underlined petition. (It's rendered the same in Luke also.)
 

Cross Reference

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I pray:
"Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Here is the Lord's prayer as recorded in the NAB:
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one."

That's a curious rendering, the contrast between the underlined petition. (It's rendered the same in Luke also.)

The final tests are the immediate temptations that never cease because we must be proven by God upon the receiving of His promises and the only way that can happen is: He leaves us alone and permits the devil to bring on the temptation that will reveal our allegiance to Him. (cf Adam, Jesus)

God does not tempt but allows the devil to tempt us, to reveal 'us' to ourselves. Hence the plea, "Lord don't test me because I know I am undone . . and it is painful.. Help me in my infirmities".

God permits the testing until we get it right. Jesus said of Himself: "the accuser comes but he has nothing in me". How come Jesus could say that and Adam couldn't?
 

chrysostom

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I pray:
"Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Here is the Lord's prayer as recorded in the NAB:
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one."

That's a curious rendering, the contrast between the underlined petition. (It's rendered the same in Luke also.)

I have no doubt that the nab is correct and I heard there is a huge argument within the church on whether or not to officially change the the prayer -
many feel that the change would do more harm than good -
 

chrysostom

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it looks like you have a file on me -
I'm honored -
it can't be easy considering how so many of my threads have been deleted -
have you kept copies? -
I am especially interested in this one

"you won't find me in church"


so I can understand the lack of knowledge behind the statement you made above. :AMR:

I'm sure the post has been deleted -
did you save the context?
you may have but I'm sure you won't share it with us -
you are just a nail being hammered
 

chrysostom

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By what standard? In the past you have advocated for reincarnation, a denial of Hell, and more. Sigh.

AMR

I am an enlightened catholic who can think for himself -
I know what is important and what is not -
the church is important -
you yourself can see what happens when many rely solely on the bible
 

TulipBee

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I am an enlightened catholic who can think for himself -
I know what is important and what is not -
the church is important -
you yourself can see what happens when many rely solely on the bible
rcc isnt important but the church is. people mistakenly think that there is an earthly organization that is the one true church as if a collection of people, church structures, and "authority" designates that it is the "one true church" on earth. But, this is a wrong assumtion. The true church is not an earthly organization. It is not a series of buildings and ceremonies rooted in ancient tradition. Instead, the church is the body of true believers. The true church consists of those who are regenerate; that is, it consists of those who are "the called", the true Christians.

Rom. 1:6, "among whom you also are the called (klaytos) of Jesus Christ."1 Cor. 1:24, "but to those who are the called (klaytos), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."Jude 1, "Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are the called(klaytos), beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ."Rev. 17:14, "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are*the called (klaytos) and chosen (eklektos) and faithful."

The greek word "klaytos" means "call, invited, divinely selected and appointed."1 The Greek word of "church" is ekklesia and is formed from a compound of the word "ek" (out of) and "kaleo" (call). Therefore, the church is the "called out ones." "Eklektos" in Rev. 17:14 above means simply means "chosen" and comes from the verb "eklegomai" which means to choose, to choose out. Therefore, the church, the ekkesia, is the "called out ones."
 

Nang

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rcc isnt important but the church is. people mistakenly think that there is an earthly organization that is the one true church as if a collection of people, church structures, and "authority" designates that it is the "one true church" on earth. But, this is a wrong assumtion. The true church is not an earthly organization. It is not a series of buildings and ceremonies rooted in ancient tradition. Instead, the church is the body of true believers. The true church consists of those who are regenerate; that is, it consists of those who are "the called", the true Christians.

Rom. 1:6, "among whom you also are the called (klaytos) of Jesus Christ."1 Cor. 1:24, "but to those who are the called (klaytos), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."Jude 1, "Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are the called(klaytos), beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ."Rev. 17:14, "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are*the called (klaytos) and chosen (eklektos) and faithful."

The greek word "klaytos" means "call, invited, divinely selected and appointed."1 The Greek word of "church" is ekklesia and is formed from a compound of the word "ek" (out of) and "kaleo" (call). Therefore, the church is the "called out ones." "Eklektos" in Rev. 17:14 above means simply means "chosen" and comes from the verb "eklegomai" which means to choose, to choose out. Therefore, the church, the ekkesia, is the "called out ones."

Yes. This is the invisible church; all chosen in Christ and called according to unconditional election. These alone will participate in the marriage of the Lamb. These are all promised everlasting life in Him!
 

Cross Reference

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Yes. This is the invisible church; all chosen in Christ and called according to unconditional election.

Unconditional?? Then why do they have to be called? And if "called" is unconditional then why do they need to obey??

You don't make sense but then, what you believe doesn't either..
 

Nihilo

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Augustine was a bishop, and not a pope. He did not teach from the chair (ex cathedra). Some of what Augustine taught was verbatim integrated into the Church's authoritative teaching, and most of it was not. This doesn't distinguish Augustine, as the same can be said for many bishops throughout the centuries.

The term "invisible church" does not appear in any scripture, it is made up.

The Church herself teaches that the Body of Christ are those in full communion with the Holy Catholic Church, plus those who "have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

In every case, "the elect" in Scripture can be substituted by "the Church," with no change in the meaning of the passage.
 

Cross Reference

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Augustine was a bishop, and not a pope. He did not teach from the chair (ex cathedra). Some of what Augustine taught was verbatim integrated into the Church's authoritative teaching, and most of it was not. This doesn't distinguish Augustine, as the same can be said for many bishops throughout the centuries.

The term "invisible church" does not appear in any scripture, it is made up.

Consider this "man-child" to be the "invisible church" with the "woman" mentioned, the "visible church". Read on with that thought in mind:

"And she [visible church] brought forth a man child [the very elect], who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child [Body of Christ] was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Revelation 12:5-17 (KJV)

Read these passages for a confirmation:

Rev 6:9 and 7:14.
 
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chrysostom

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Yes. This is the invisible church; all chosen in Christ and called according to unconditional election. These alone will participate in the marriage of the Lamb. These are all promised everlasting life in Him!

the church is visible and it doesn't teach tulip, the most dangerous belief there is because according to tulip, it doesn't matter what you do
 
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