Treating Homosexuals Differently at Home and Church

[Arthur Brain]

Why do you need a life boat, you're perfect like Jesus. And you're letting me drown? Pull me up first then convince me. Sheesh some life guard you'd make.

Well, how many times do you need a lifeboat to rescue you? Every day effectively? I'm not saying I'm fully on board with Elo here as I do have questions but if you're still sinning then what places you above anyone else?

 

[danoman31]

Then will you disown your son if he becomes a thief?

Yes, if he continues to steal. He's been warned once, do it again and he's on his own. So the next question you will posit is what if your son is 7 yrs old or you can pick the age.
At that age no I would not kick him to the curb, don't be foolish. He would be punished. If he continued to steal, he would be punished again, perhaps more severly. If he still continued then I would have to question my methods of persuasion because I'm obviously not getting through to him. So with God's help I will diligently search and ask for an answer.When I get it, I will put it to use. But seriously, after so much punishment do you really think he'd continue to steal. Nope, my kids not an idiot, he learns quickly.
If he were a young adult the consequences of his actions would be more severe, up to and including banishment from my house.

Yeah I know already, I'm a mean and heartless man. That's your opinion, and well we all know opinions are like.

 

[danoman31]

You have wrongly attributed your words to me by placing them in my quote. Please correct that and learn to use the quote feature. It's not that hard.

Sorry didn't mean to do that. I apologize, forgive me. Could you perhaps explain to me how to use the quote feature. I read it somewhere once, but can't remember where. Again sorry, wont do it again.

 

[Skavau]

Whew!!! First off let me apologize for not knowing how to use the quote tools properly. Patience will be needed.

You simply type [ quote ] to begin quoting someone (without the spaces) and then put the persons text in and then end it by typing [ / quote ] (again without the spaces). Simply check what I have done when you quote me to see what I mean.

OK #1 You claim to be an atheist so I now know why you've answered the way you have. Makes it pointless to go any further but I'll persevere.

I do not just claim to be an atheist. I am an atheist.

#2 Of course you wouldn't tolerate my beliefs, you think I'm foolish to believe a myth. Your so called morals trump mine anyday of the week because your morals change. You have no compass, ergo you are lost.

Well, you queried where my tolerance was as if I was expected to have it towards you. I responded and now you've answered your own initial question. My "so called morals" trump yours though on the basis that they are concerned about the welfare of other humans (the only working relevant definition of morality) and that yours does not.

#3 Yup there are no such things absolutes, you my friend are ABSOLUTELY correct.

Concerning morality, there isn't. Morality is a human construct devised by us for us.

#4 What? I'm confused. You seem to agree with me but just a moment ago you didn't. Ah,

I thought you were being sarcastic, even though I agreed with what you were saying.

you must be a woman. (sorry to all the other woman here, long story)

This would not be your first incorrect assumption. I'm a bloke (slang for male in the UK).

#5Openly arrogant/ignorant to who? You and those that agree with you? So be it, that I can live with. You almost hurt my feelings.

You answered your own question again. When you presume to know about the 'homosexual lifestyle' and tell homosexuals that they are hell-bound, vile, perverts etc then you take upon the properties of arrogant and ignorant to them and immediately invite contempt. Just like how if a Muslim approached you and warned you of eternal hellfire and demanded you revoke your "idols" you would view him with contempt.

#6Again you'd have to accept Jesus as your saviour to understand what price homos will pay. I'm advocating that a homo can escape the torment of Hell if he'll make the right choice. I know I know what choice is there if there is no God. Sigh.

That's not what I was referring to. Never-mind. I suspect you weren't saying what I thought you were saying anyway.

#7Yup God is one tough dictator. Obey Him or suffer in Hell for eternity. Yup you're absolutely right, oops forgot there are no absolutes.

There are no moral absolutes. Though if your belief on God is true, all of the above there would be true.

See, atheists are so....atheistic, eoouu, yuck. Wonder why anyone would want to obey such an arrogant being that was created by man. Why would man conjure up such a being in the first place. Hmm???

Uh, sure. This is more true than I think you know. Why indeed would anyone want to obey a being that would condemn all non-believers to eternal torment?

#8 Well then can I worship you since you're soo much more tolerant and forgiving. All hail Skavau. You just don't get the Message do you.

You're right, I don't. I've never asked or even implied anyone obey or worship me. I get though that you're apparently so vested in your own self-interest that you'll endorse apparently anything that God says no matter how evil it is towards others. I already know that you're in a slave-master setup.

#9Guess what? You'll get to be intelectually honest FOREVER. Where would you like to spend it?

This isn't true. If I was to accept the offer of salvation then I would be required by definition to feign belief in Christianity. It would demand that I pretend to believe something that I both both evil and untrue for my own self-interest. In the grand scheme of things, it is difficult to actually imagine something so self-serving and contemptible.

Darn, keep forgetting your a non-believer. Nevertheless, you will be a believer in the end, and not because I say so. How's that for arrogance and ignorance. I got plenty more.

For the last statement, I have no dispute. I am sure you have a lot more arrogance and ignorance on many avenues. Don't stop on account of me.

#10So lets say hypothetically your adult child was arrested for molesting a child and he showed no remorse, regret, shame for what he did and admits that he will continue to commit such acts. You would still embrace him in your loving arms and welcome him in your home which at times host your grandchildren?

You understand that there's a significant difference between pedophilia and homosexuality, right? It is entirely acceptable to disown your child for actions such as rape, murder, pedophilia and violent crime especially if they show no remorse, regret or shame. It is not the same to disown your child for having a consensual relationship with another person in the same gender.

Apples and oranges.

If so then you my friend are more disgusting than I could ever be. I know I know not all homos are pedophiles, close enough for me.

Actually, I wouldn't be. A good job though that I probably would disown my child for something like the above.

Whether or not it is "close enough for you" doesn't matter. It was a stupid analogy that was divorced from what I said. It is contemptible to disown your own child based on them being in a homosexual relationship.

#11Now you know how Jesus felt when he was "disowned" by his own people. He too was sad.

And now according to you he promises to or affiliates with the being that will torture people forever for not permanently viewing him in constant adulation. Talk about a fall from grace.

I can't have much sympathy there, I'm afraid.

#12 You know exactly what I mean by perverse. Defining it away won't help/save you.

Yeah, you mean sexually abnormal and/or grotesque. Take away the word 'sexual' from it and it simply becomes abnormal and therefore can become anything that is taboo or non-mainstream, such as listening to specific music.

To put simply: Making the argument that something is wrong because it is 'perverse' doesn't work unless you wish to impose mass conformity on all people at all times.

#13Citation OK but you won't like it. Ready here it comes........The Bible.

Now you're going to need to citate what the Bible says on homosexuality.

See I knew you would hate it. Oh you want a validating view from man's perspective. Well then you're right and I'm wrong you win.

I'll take that. It is more a concession than you admit. You make claims like homosexuality leads only to "destruction" and "death" and admit that according to all human knowledge ever that it is baseless. I'll take that, absolutely.

Man knows more about this kind of stuff than our Creator scince our Creator is a myth.

Yeah, pretty much. More accurately though: We know more about homosexuality than the superstitious and ignorant authors of the Bible.

#14 Well thank you very much. NO parent has ever wished their child to grow up to be a homo. NONE have EVER said Gee honey our child is so wonderful and beautiful, wonder what he/she will be when they grow up. Oh baby I hope he/she at least will be a homosexual. NONE have EVER jumped to joy upon hearing their child is gay, conversely you could reply that none have said they hope he's hetero, or that they rejoiced upon hearing their child is heterosexual, you'd be correct for the most part.

LOL

So what was your point? You've very good at inadvertently summarising my position. Most parents worth their salt won't care about their child's sexuality.

Mostly they would be thankful. Longshot here but I suspect that you are gay.

You're right, it is a long shot. At the moment you seem to also think that I am a woman as well so at the moment you have me down for a lesbian. I am for your information a heterosexual male.

For someone who claims to know so much about other people's thought processes you seem to frequently miss in your observations.

If so then imagine how your parents felt/feel. You have saddened them by the choice you made.

This is even more arrogant and disgusting. How sir, would you even pretend to know what my parents think on this matter? Do you know them? You are literally claiming more insight into the thought process of my own parents than me and you wonder why I call you arrogant?!

You accuse them of bigotry and interlorance. Which saddens them even more and then eventually it may anger them to be accused of such wickedness.

Actually, given that I am not homosexual I haven't accused them of anything like that.

I also want to take note here about your hypocrisy. You think it entirely appropriate to make sweeping comments about all homosexuals inadvertently labeling them all or mostly pedophiles with your silly analogy earlier or labelling them as vile, perverts etc and yet it saddens you when they my reciprocate and call people who make those statements as bigoted and intolerant?

Do you have any self-awareness whatsoever?

They want to love you as you are but you have made it difficult for them. They try REAL hard to show their love but inside they anguish. Or your parents may be like me and no longer want you around. Both are sad situations. If my son were gay I'd do exactly as I said I would, and yes I'd be sad that I lost my son and I would want him back deeply, but unless he changes his mind I can't /won't have him around the family. Find God find salvation get the family back.

Of course all of this is fantasy because I'm straight.

#15Christian homos? Yeah right. Christian murders, Christian adulterers, Christian polygamists, Christian rapists, Christian thiefs, any one else I left out?

Probably.

That you disagree with them doesn't mean they describe themselves as any less Christian.

#16 A book, right. I keep forgetting, sorry. OK enough is enough. Debating a fool is foolish. Hey wait a sec..... oh well.

Hyuck-Hyuck yer got me!

Pure wit, clearly.

 

[Nick M]

So your religion dictates how you treat other human beings ... nice to know!

So does yours. Shall I quote you proclaiming(correctly) that certain criminals should be execute?

Fags, adulterers, pedophiles, incest, rape = all capital crimes to God.

 

[danoman31]

:doh: You said you still sin from time-to-time!

What does "repenting from sin" mean to you?

On one hand you claim homosexuals must repent from ceasing from their sin, and on the other hand you claim to have repented from sin while still sinning from time-to-time. :dizzy:

Please make up your minds already.

Yes I still sin, almost daily. How about that. Still not a Christian right? Got it.

repent means to change ones mind or ways. You have obviously repented since you no longer sin. My repentance was a lie, right?

"homosexuals must repent from ceasing from their sin" ????

thats ok I know what you meant.

Yup i claim to have repented, yet I still sin. Does that mean I'm still a sinner, gosh I hope not. Don't feel like a sinner.

 

[Ktoyou]

Why not treat homosexuals like human beings just like everyone else?

Because they have a mental illness! It changed, as a political action, had it changed along with higher moral standards, such as wearing clothes without holes in them, now they sell with holes! It is a glorification of ugliness and worshiping the worst in a society, the ghetto mentality! That does not mean the best minds agreed. It is commercial and political, not moral, or psychological.

 

[Skavau]

Yup extreme it is, to you.Your worst enemy huh? So if a man raped your wife and molested your child, you'd allow him to live on. Where? For how long? Prison, well that's pretty cruel too don't you think.

This is an invalid comparison. We imprison dangerous people for what they've done (not what they think, or what they feel) to take them away from society, to prevent them from harming others. In any non-corrupt prison they are treated reasonably well (sometimes too well I grant you) and they are in many circumstances kept there with the intention of rehabilitating them to return to society. There is no talk of torture, no talk of any such sadism like that.

This is in stalk contrast to what you believe. You believe that all non-believers are going to burn in hell forever for thought-crime. You believe that it is entirely justified for someone to receive permanent torture purely for not believe in God and getting their information on the supernatural incorrect. This is the language of fascism and totalitarianism and as a citizen of a free nation you should be ashamed to endorse this stuff.

What even, is the point eternal torment if not sadism? There is no possibility of redemption or reconciliation it is just sheer unending pain. It is nothing but childish vengeance for those who don't obey.

For how long? Life, well that's even better. So now he gets fed, sheltered, clothed, health care, conjugal visits, cable TV, a place toplay, a bed to sleep on. He gets to be somebody's "friend" or makes somebody his "friend". Perhaps get released due to overcrowding. (happened here in my town where a guy just released due to overcrowding went and killed 1 shot another and kidnapped a guy.). Oh Iknow, thats not the same thing as being a homo.

Again, you keep answering your own questions. Of course a rapist is not the same as a homosexual. Your very attempt was pitiful in the first place.

That laws on rapists may be more lenient than they should be has really nothing to do with anything here. Almost all families and friends of the victim of a rape would if they could have something like mild torture or even death to rapists of their beloved, but where I am, we have the rule of law and don't rule by the mob.

God says it is, sorry. God is the Creator so He gets to make the rules. I like his rules. Actually only one rule now. But I digress

Right, so there we are. This is what I mean by your evil. You make all these analogies and pseudo-justifications but it all comes down to pure obedience. You literally didn't believe anything in the above. You even referenced the obvious response to your claims. You necessarily, by your explanation can only derive morality from authority. You can only derive your behavioural constraints by the declaration of might. Humanity can mean nothing but tools to an end of God's grand scheme.

There is a deeper problem to your explanation, and it confirms exactly what I suspected. You propose a morality of systematic obedience and capitulation to authority in the face of demands. Your morality is nothing more than this. You claim that so long as God decrees X then it is right. The self-destructive consequences of this mentality can be seen immediately. You do not say that things such as murder, theft, rape, slavery, torture etc are wrong because of their impact on the lives of other people. You say that these things are wrong just because God says so. You distort the term 'moral' to mean 'obedience' and the term 'immoral' to mean 'disobedience'. If you really, truly believe that this is true then you could have no objection to anything God could ever say. If hypothetically, God was to decree murder as valid - you could have no mechanism to disapprove. If God was to state that rape was wholly acceptable - you would have no reasoning in your library to dispute that. The terms 'justice' and 'compassion', just like morality can have no meaning in your dichotomy. And this is objective? This is a morality of understanding, of objective parameters? It creates an applicable converse to the opposite of Dostoyevsky's famous quote in the Brother's Karamazov. I'll say: with God, all things are possible, though not always for the better.

You have no morality, only obedience. You are in permanent servitude to a master.

A man chooses, a slave obeys.

 

[elohiym]

Sorry didn't mean to do that. I apologize, forgive me.

I forgive you.

Could you perhaps explain to me how to use the quote feature. I read it somewhere once, but can't remember where.

Sure. It's easy.

I'll use your response to me as an example. First, I broke your quote into two sections I wanted to address. Then I copied the quote tag at the beginning of the first section,

, and pasted it before the second section. Then I placed a close-quote tag, [/QUOTE ], at the end of each of your quotes. That's it.

Make sense?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes, if he continues to steal. He's been warned once, do it again and he's on his own. So the next question you will posit is what if your son is 7 yrs old or you can pick the age.
At that age no I would not kick him to the curb, don't be foolish. He would be punished. If he continued to steal, he would be punished again, perhaps more severly. If he still continued then I would have to question my methods of persuasion because I'm obviously not getting through to him. So with God's help I will diligently search and ask for an answer.When I get it, I will put it to use. But seriously, after so much punishment do you really think he'd continue to steal. Nope, my kids not an idiot, he learns quickly.
If he were a young adult the consequences of his actions would be more severe, up to and including banishment from my house.

Yeah I know already, I'm a mean and heartless man. That's your opinion, and well we all know opinions are like.

You presume too much. I wouldn't have expected you to say you'd have disowned him/her for one offence and especially not as a kid, nor would I have expected you to kick them out after a few offences even into young adulthood. So I wouldn't think you're a mean and heartless man for that.

But what if your son or daughter tells you (in their later teens for sake of argument) that they're gay? They don't have to have been sexually active, and for the further sake of argument lets say they haven't been. What then? Would you chastise them for it? Do you think that such sexual leanings are nothing other than choice even if not acted upon?

 

[danoman31]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Do you believe that?

Well yeah kinda, Paul has a slightly different take. According to Paul I am free from the law, saved by grace only. Jesus fulfilled the law so that I don't have to, By the way thank you Jesus, couldn't have done it without you. I'm filled with the Holy Spirit now, feels great, nice and cozy and comfy. Like a big hug from grandpa except without the smell.

 

[danoman31]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Do you believe that?

Well yeah kinda, Paul has a slightly different take. According to Paul I am free from the law, saved by grace only. Jesus fulfilled the law so that I don't have to, By the way thank you Jesus, couldn't have done it without you. I'm filled with the Holy Spirit now, feels great, nice and cozy and comfy. Like a big hug from grandpa except without the smell. Was Paul wrong?

 

[danoman31]

Well, how many times do you need a lifeboat to rescue you? Every day effectively? I'm not saying I'm fully on board with Elo here as I do have questions but if you're still sinning then what places you above anyone else?

Well according to Jesus I only need to ask once for His forgiveness. Asking over and over for forgiveness annoys Him I'd imagine. He said He's forgiven my past present and future sins. So asking again is pointless. I do confess to Him daily that I have sinned and regret having done so, but He knows that. Getting better S L O W L Y. You see I may still sin but I'm not a sinner. I know thats a tough thing to grasp, struggled for years with that. Felt guilty all the time. Them 10 commandments are tough. Thank Jesus he released from that contract. Now do I go out and blindly willfully violate the Law, no. I hate when I dissappoint God, but I am saved. May not be at the front of the bus, but I'm on the bus. Elo, well he's the driver.

I'm barely above those under the Law.

 

[elohiym]

Yes I still sin, almost daily. How about that. Still not a Christian right? Got it.

Obviously you didn't get it. I said there are converted and unconverted Christians, and even gave you Peter as an example of an unconverted Christian (Jesus said Peter was unconverted at that time).

repent means to change ones mind or ways.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

You have obviously repented since you no longer sin.

Rather, I no longer sin because I repented.

My repentance was a lie, right?

I wouldn't say that, but would say you haven't repented.

"homosexuals must repent from ceasing from their sin" ????

thats ok I know what you meant.

If you knew what I meant, you should have addressed my point.

Yup i claim to have repented, yet I still sin. Does that mean I'm still a sinner, gosh I hope not. Don't feel like a sinner.

It means you are still a sinner and have not repented. That you don't feel like a sinner even though you sin is a problem. Hopefully you will resolve that problem with God's help in short order.

 

[Skavau]

Well according to Jesus I only need to ask once for His forgiveness. Asking over and over for forgiveness annoys Him I'd imagine. He said He's forgiven my past present and future sins.

You were born imperfect with the propensity towards 'sin'. How is it fair for you to be inherently condemned for your own tendencies or held accountable for when you inevitably fault against the law?

Why would that even in absence of Jesus' forgiveness command eternal torture? Do you not find the slightest thing sinister here, the idea that you are born sick, born weak and commanded to be perfect on pain of eternal torture? Born inherently guilty and commanded to be innocent. Held accountable by birthright.

 

[danoman31]

You presume too much. I wouldn't have expected you to say you'd have disowned him/her for one offence and especially not as a kid, nor would I have expected you to kick them out after a few offences even into young adulthood. So I wouldn't think you're a mean and heartless man for that.

But what if your son or daughter tells you (in their later teens for sake of argument) that they're gay? They don't have to have been sexually active, and for the further sake of argument lets say they haven't been. What then? Would you chastise them for it? Do you think that such sexual leanings are nothing other than choice even if not acted upon?

Ok good we're on the same page there.

If my child in their late teens as you stated came to me and told me he was gay, I would inform him of the consequences of such behaviour. For atheists this would be a pointless effort since they refuse to believe there are consequences. I would ask my child if he's asked for God's forgiveness, is he ready to repent and if believes that Jesus died for his sins and rose on the 3rd day. If he says no to any of that then sadly I would no longer allow him in my home. He has a choice, do right and risk the consequences. If he comes back and asks me to forgive him and he's accepted Jesus, then I would let him back in.

Wait wait..... Where's Elo, I'm a hypocrite I know I Know.

 

[elohiym]

Well yeah kinda, Paul has a slightly different take.

Paul has a different take on John 14:12? Not at all.

According to Jesus, those who believe will do the works he did and greater works. Jesus didn't sin, and neither do those who believe the gospel.

According to Paul I am free from the law ...

No. According to Jesus and Paul you are servant of sin if you sin. John 8:34 and Romans 6:16.

Paul said he served the law of God with his mind (Ro 7:25). Paul also said all things are lawful for him (1Co 6:12; 1Co 10:23).

If you are not under the law, then according to what law are you sinning? If you claim to sin, it means you are judging yourself according to a law, and it obviously means you are not serving the law of God with your mind, and necessarily means that all things are not lawful for you.

Jesus fulfilled the law so that I don't have to

What you are saying is that Jesus didn't sin so you can sin, but homosexuals can't.

By the way thank you Jesus, couldn't have done it without you.

You should cut the sarcasm. You're not good at it, and it makes you appear incapable of rational discussion.

Was Paul wrong?

No. But you don't understand what Paul taught, and haven't repented yet.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Ok good we're on the same page there.

If my child in their late teens as you stated came to me and told me he was gay, I would inform him of the consequences of such behaviour. For atheists this would be a pointless effort since they refuse to believe there are consequences. I would ask my child if he's asked for God's forgiveness, is he ready to repent and if believes that Jesus died for his sins and rose on the 3rd day. If he says no to any of that then sadly I would no longer allow him in my home. He has a choice, do right and risk the consequences. If he comes back and asks me to forgive him and he's accepted Jesus, then I would let him back in.

Wait wait..... Where's Elo, I'm a hypocrite I know I Know.

Well it was actually were he or she to tell you they were gay but by the by for now. I'm going to disregard your comment as regards atheists as it's irrelevant and I don't happen to be one anyway.

Now if it wasn't for your child being a non practicing homosexual would you still lay out the same guidelines for his/her still being able to reside under your roof? In other words, is the only criteria for your shelter and protection that your child believe the same as you've described above? Say you asked your 18 year old heterosexual child the exact same questions and they responded negatively, would you kick them out of your home?

Do you see the point here?

 

[Rusha]

So does yours.

As you know, I have no religion, Nicky.

Shall I quote you proclaiming(correctly) that certain criminals should be execute?

What is there to quote? I have always supported the DP for malicious crimes that victimize other individuals.

Fags, adulterers, pedophiles, incest, rape = all capital crimes to God.

Too bad for you that we live in a secular society. There is no penalty under the *legitimate* law for the sexual acts of CONSENTING ADULTS.

Guess you will just have to get over it.

 

[Ktoyou]

Well yeah kinda, Paul has a slightly different take. According to Paul I am free from the law, saved by grace only. Jesus fulfilled the law so that I don't have to, By the way thank you Jesus, couldn't have done it without you. I'm filled with the Holy Spirit now, feels great, nice and cozy and comfy. Like a big hug from grandpa except without the smell.

Sounds like baloney to me!