Lovejoy
Active member
:noway: Good grief!
toldailytopic: Liberal vs. Conservative. Where and why do you stand?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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:noway: Good grief!
Newman
New member
Left and right isn't a false dichotomy, but an incomplete way of looking at politics.
The best way to conceptualize it is the square grid thing. Those on the left reject economic freedom but assert personal freedom. Those on the right reject personal freedom but assert economic freedom. Those down below (statists, populists) reject an individual's freedom to make economic choices and personal choices. Above, we have libertarianism, which posits both economic and personal freedoms. The grid is helpful because it shows a clear center and demonstrates how both the y and the x direction involve increasing or decreasing freedoms. It also shows us how two political preferences are similar (like how both libertarians and right wingers prefer economic freedoms) and dissimilar (libertarians and right wingers disagree on how much freedom people should have in making personal decisions).
I am a staunch libertarian. People should be free to make their own money, trade it for whatever goods and/or services they want, and be free to act in the economy without taxation or regulation. People should also be free to do whatever they want with themselves and their stuff. Just because something is socially stigmatized doesn't mean it should be illegal.
The only rights people have are (1) life, (2) liberty, (3) private property. These rights end as soon as they trespass on another person's same three rights.
Abortion is not a left or right issue, and it's not a statist/libertarian issue either. It is a debate about when life begins, and the only reason left/right tendencies arose is because of the association of the feminist movement with the Democratic Party. It's a shame, really. An entire group of unborn children receiving so much neglect for their right to life because of groupthink phenomena.
My strong opinion on when life starts is really the only thing that could (sort of) tip me into being associated with the right, though--hence the "more right than left" label you see below my user name.
The best way to conceptualize it is the square grid thing. Those on the left reject economic freedom but assert personal freedom. Those on the right reject personal freedom but assert economic freedom. Those down below (statists, populists) reject an individual's freedom to make economic choices and personal choices. Above, we have libertarianism, which posits both economic and personal freedoms. The grid is helpful because it shows a clear center and demonstrates how both the y and the x direction involve increasing or decreasing freedoms. It also shows us how two political preferences are similar (like how both libertarians and right wingers prefer economic freedoms) and dissimilar (libertarians and right wingers disagree on how much freedom people should have in making personal decisions).
I am a staunch libertarian. People should be free to make their own money, trade it for whatever goods and/or services they want, and be free to act in the economy without taxation or regulation. People should also be free to do whatever they want with themselves and their stuff. Just because something is socially stigmatized doesn't mean it should be illegal.
The only rights people have are (1) life, (2) liberty, (3) private property. These rights end as soon as they trespass on another person's same three rights.
Abortion is not a left or right issue, and it's not a statist/libertarian issue either. It is a debate about when life begins, and the only reason left/right tendencies arose is because of the association of the feminist movement with the Democratic Party. It's a shame, really. An entire group of unborn children receiving so much neglect for their right to life because of groupthink phenomena.
My strong opinion on when life starts is really the only thing that could (sort of) tip me into being associated with the right, though--hence the "more right than left" label you see below my user name.
elohiym
Well-known member
Well, the scriptures are completely in line with my position.
What's a believer to do? :idunno:
Economic Left/Right: -3.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.28
I am a left leaning libertarian. That is about right. I consider my self to be more left because that is where I see Jesus to be, more concerned about the health and welfare of others and not concerned about "stuff".
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.28
I am a left leaning libertarian. That is about right. I consider my self to be more left because that is where I see Jesus to be, more concerned about the health and welfare of others and not concerned about "stuff".
Man oh man am I glad Jesus thought we were worth dieing for!
Economic Left/Right: -2.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64
So, slightly to the left and more pronouncedly Libertarian than I would have thought.
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64
So, slightly to the left and more pronouncedly Libertarian than I would have thought.
elohiym
Well-known member
Jesus taught that one will perish in hellfire for the smallest sin (John 8:34-35; John 5:14; Luke 13:3, 5; Mat 10:28). That's the true conservative position, and perfectly in line with the gospel.
So now what's your argument? :idunno:
Lovejoy
Active member
You still live far enough away that I need not fear actual bodily harm when you see me out jogging on the sabbath, right? Otherwise, I want my cestus back!
Love ya, man!
elohiym
Well-known member
If you think it's a sin to jog on the Sabbath then I think we need to discuss the gospel on another thread. Those in Christ do not, and cannot break the Sabbath; it's an impossibility.
This is one of those times where, at first glance, my position seems, well...out there? However, it wouldn't take much Bible study to show that my position is the way, based on the Way.
I loaned it to Attila. Sorry. :chuckle:
Love ya, man!
Of that, I have no doubt.
drbrumley
Well-known member
This is what 140 years of public school education gets ya. :sigh:
He taught that we were all worthy of death for our sins. But He sacrificed Himself for the forgiveness of all our sins so that we would be redeemed and saved from death into everlasting life. My argument is that Jesus died to save us, not to condemn us.
Sabbath rest in Christ?If you think it's a sin to jog on the Sabbath then I think we need to discuss the gospel on another thread. Those in Christ do not, and cannot break the Sabbath; it's an impossibility.
This is one of those times where, at first glance, my position seems, well...out there? However, it wouldn't take much Bible study to show that my position is the way, based on the Way.
I loaned it to Attila. Sorry. :chuckle:
Of that, I have no doubt.
elohiym
Well-known member
Yes. The whole point of the Sabbath commandment, to cease from our works for righteousness and accept His righteousness apart from the law. If you have entered His rest, you cannot break the Sabbath.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
There's more to picture, but I don't want to derail the thread. Bottom line: the fourth commandment is valid today, and those in violation should be put to death if anyone is being put to death for other offenses (like murder). That would be a conservative position.
In contrast, a liberal position is: the sabbath was ceremonial not moral (a ridiculous assertion), and is not applicable to Christians today. Or, the sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday (based on whatever fallacious reasons the liberal Christian can imagine--church authority, the resurrection, etc.).
I judge liberals and conservatives by their application of the word of God, as every Christian should, in my opinion.
elohiym
Well-known member
Then you must be opposed to the death penalty for any offenses? :idunno:
Yet he still said sin no more, and those who did not repent would perish in hellfire, a hellfire of his making and delivery.
lain: He's coming again to judge the world and destroy all unreprentant sinners with the brightness of his coming. Really! It's in the Bible.
Used to be. Not so much any more.
Didn't we agree on a different thread that Jesus death on the cross completed the Old Covenant, the Covenant of Law, and sealed the New Covenant, the Covenant of grace?elohiym said:Yet he still said sin no more, and those who did not repent would perish in hellfire, a hellfire of his making and delivery.
Yes, yes He is.elohiym said:
But maybe we should stop this here lest we totally hijack the thread!
The Berean
Well-known member
You wouldn't believe me if I told you.:nono:
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