toldailytopic: For those unsaved. If it turns out you were wrong and you face God in

[godrulz]

That isn't proof of anything.



That would just lead me to believe I've lost my mind.

We will all stand before Him in His blazing glory/majesty and every knee will bow and tongue confess that He is YHWH, to the glory of the Father. Those who love Him will remain with Him forever, while those who do not long for His coming will be separated from His awesome beauty forever (Rev. 1; Rev. 20; Philippians 2:5-11).

Perhaps today He will return; perhaps today, we will breath our last for a variety of reasons (Heb. 9:27).

Don't play games with God and your soul (denial is a game).

 

[Skavau]

We think we must see to believe (some truth), but Jesus said to believe and then you will see. Those who act on the light they have will receive more light (otherwise rejecting it would only lead to further hardening/judgment).

I can't do that. Have you been paying attention? You're making the exact same error as earlier. Before I can believe I need to be convinced. I cannot just make myself believe - I would only be deceiving myself.

If you disagree with God you are essentially rebelling against God.

No you're not. Do you know the definition of rebelling? I can't rebel against something if I don't believe that it exists. This is as stupid as the Islamic argument for the criminalisation of apostasy that declares all former Muslims as have committed "treason".

The issue is not being right or wrong about a quiz. I gave mental assent to the coherence and truth of Christianity, but would have gone to hell. The issue is receiving or rejecting the person and work of Christ, not having all the answers. God is holy/just. Man is sinful by choice. Only Christ can bridge the gap. God would be unjust to not punish sin. He provided a substitute for the penalty of sin. We cannot save ourselves.

You mean the sin that he is indirectly and directly responsible for? We are born imperfect at his approval or apathy. We commit imperfect actions at his approval or apathy. We then die in a state of imperfection (at his approval or apathy). We are born wretched and then held accountable for it.

You underestimate His holiness and responsibility as a Moral Governor of the universe and overestimate your goodness (which still falls short of His standard of perfection).

This is an empty statement. How do you define "holiness" and "moral"? I imagine God could do absolutely anything and you would consider it moral.

Those who do not even believe He exists are also actively suppressing truth despite the evidence. In the end, there will be no exuse before God. Hundreds of millions have seen the Light and been changed by it. Those who are in darkness have great difficulty understanding.

You have no way of knowing this. This is just another claim that you cannot back up.

God is not interested in your opinion (Pr 14:12). He is interested in your obedience (Mt 6:33).

Then you entirely divorce your entire world-view from morality and into slavery. You want to worship a God that insists upon such perpetual masochism, you're welcome to keep it.

 

[Skavau]

Right, you know more about it than most christians who have their will stuck in high gear, for all the world to snicker at. God teaches this in Romans 9-11, That 9-11 serves as a warning to those who say they can choose themselves into belief.

There are many different semantics in vicarious redemption. It often depends on the Christian that you are talking to. But yes, vicarious redemption is an absolutely ludicrous concept.

 

[godrulz]

There are many different semantics in vicarious redemption. It often depends on the Christian that you are talking to. But yes, vicarious redemption is an absolutely ludicrous concept.

You are a foolish godplayer who thinks they know better than an omniscient, absolutely wise God. I gave a link on the issues facing a holy God to wisely reconcile sinful men.

You are just spouting your heart condition, depravity, dullness of understanding. You are not defeating the truth of God. Truly you are willfully deaf, dumb, and blind to spiritual reality because you are trying to understand spiritual reality with your physical senses. This is why we need revelation and the Spirit to illuminate it.

"He is there and He is not silent." -Francis Schaeffer

We get it. You don't believe in God, don't want to believe in God, you are your own god (the message of the Bible is that God is God and we are not).

Move along. Come back when you are broken and see your desperate need for His love and power.

 

[Skavau]

You are a foolish godplayer who thinks they know better than an omniscient, absolutely wise God. I gave a link on the issues facing a holy God to wisely reconcile sinful men.

I don't believe in a omniscient "absolutely wise" God. I am responding to concepts held true by other humans. The notion of vicarious redemption exists amongst fallible humans, and it shows. The claim of hell, original sin, the crucifixion of Jesus exist amongst fallible humans. I am responding to claims made by other people.

You are just spouting your heart condition, depravity, dullness of understanding. You are not defeating the truth of God. Truly you are willfully deaf, dumb, and blind to spiritual reality because you are trying to understand spiritual reality with your physical senses. This is why we need revelation and the Spirit to illuminate it.

I have no reason to believe "spiritual reality" exists. I am responding as an observer, not as a believer suppressing any truth.

We get it. You don't believe in God, don't want to believe in God, you are your own god (the message of the Bible is that God is God and we are not).

I am not sure that you (amongst others) actually understand the nature of my opposition and anti-theism towards your concept of God. Do you even know why I rail against it?

 

[godrulz]

Please tell why you rail against it? Are you doing so out of arrogant ignorance, negative experiences, straw men concepts that we would also despise?

http://www.amazon.com/Irrational-Atheist-Dissecting-Trinity-Hitchens/dp/1933771364

You and your ilk are irrational, but we are all ears why you prefer to be your own god and reject the One who truly is worthy because He is eternal God.

 

[Jacob]

No you're not. Do you know the definition of rebelling? I can't rebel against something if I don't believe that it exists. This is as stupid as the Islamic argument for the criminalisation of apostasy that declares all former Muslims as have committed "treason".

I'm simply saying that sin is rebellion against God, transgressing His law/commandments.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Psalm 10:4 The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, "There is no God."

Psalm 14:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

Psalm 53:1 For the choir director; according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good.

 

[Skavau]

Please tell why you rail against it? Are you doing so out of arrogant ignorance, negative experiences, straw men concepts that we would also despise?

I consider the claim that all unsaved are destined for eternal torture for our own inherent sin is an immoral claim. You believe that we are all born imperfect with the propensity to commit evil actions. It is to say that we all will at some point act in anti-social ways to our fellow humans and treat their interests as sub-par compared to ours. You then tell us that the God that allowed us to be born in such wretchedness is going to (when we die) punish us for said actions. This is as absurd as it is immoral. Why is God holding us accountable for our own nature which he bestowed or allowed upon us?

You continue by suggesting a get-out clause. The notion of vicarious redemption, or by its more pragmatic name: scapegoating. That our own sins are to be piled upon to another being and our accountability absolved. And how is this done? Purely through thought. Purely through recognising that we have a 'saviour' that will take the burden of our own sin for us and pay our debt for us. This as a solution is entirely incoherent as it requires one to change how and what they think in order to come to it. You cannot choose your beliefs. I am an atheist because I see no evidence for the existence of God(s). I cannot change my belief at a whim or at the desire for a God to exist as I would only be deceiving myself. I also could not and would not respect anyone who told me that I must deceive myself and pretend to believe in God in order to eventually convince myself. It promotes dishonesty and anti-intellectualism. So what about the millions upon millions of people like me that simply don't believe that Christianity is true? We may be imperfect, but our only 'crime' here (as attested to by you and others) is simply our inability to believe in the resurrection of Jesus and his sacrifice for us. You literally believe it is acceptable for people to be punished for what they could not think, which is the uncommon definition for thought-crime.

And what of Muslims and other beliefs that believe in a different redemption? You can't argue that they are anti-God because they are overwhelmingly monotheistic or polytheistic. They simply believe incorrectly that there is another way. Are they to be considered as simply rebels that scoffed at the prospect worthy of nothing more than eternal torture - which by the way, is another immoral claim. How is eternal torture anything less than pure sadism?

 

[Skavau]

I'm simply saying that sin is rebellion against God, transgressing His law/commandments.

If I am "transgressing" the commandments of God then I transgress a lot in total ignorance of such. I am an atheist: I don't believe in a God. You might as well be telling me that I am in violation of Allah, or Zeus.

It is of note concerning sin that we are (according to your world-view) born into it and suffer from hereditary imperfection. I literally cannot help that I am transgressing.

 

[godrulz]

If I am "transgressing" the commandments of God then I transgress a lot in total ignorance of such. I am an atheist: I don't believe in a God. You might as well be telling me that I am in violation of Allah, or Zeus.

It is of note concerning sin that we are (according to your world-view) born into it and suffer from hereditary imperfection. I literally cannot help that I am transgressing.

This is one problem with traditional 'original sin'. If this is your excuse, then try a more biblical view (that most Christians reject, but not with your zeal).

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

So, what is your background and why do you have a bee in your bonnet against Christianity?

 

[Skavau]

This is one problem with traditional 'original sin'. If this is your excuse, then try a more biblical view (that most Christians reject, but not with your zeal).

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

The website does not work.

In any case: I know you don't accept original sin (or ancestral guilt). But you do necessarily have to agree that we are born imperfect with the propensity towards sin. If we were not born imperfect then we could not be held accountable. So how is fair that we are born imperfect and then condemned (by our creator no less) for our inability to cease immorality.

So, what is your background and why do you have a bee in your bonnet against Christianity

It is indignation, really. I have similar contempt for Islam. It is nothing personal to you or others, but I consider concepts such as torture in hell, redemption through belief and the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent God that tracks and observes our every waking movement as nightmarish, apocalyptic and the ultimate in masochism. My words are heavy handed, but they are chosen for said purpose. You might be unsurprised to note that I hold no contempt for Christian universalism (such as Samstarret here) or those that reject the traditional model of hell.

 

[Persephone66]

There is bad news and there is good news: "...[D]o you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers shall inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Co 6:9). God has good news for homosexuals. They are redeemable. They can be saved. They can be delivered from that sin. They can be washed from its stains. They can be set on a road of godly, holy, pure living called sanctification..."

See:

God's View of Homosexuality, Part 1 by John MacArthur

Do I look like I care?

 

[Jacob]

If I am "transgressing" the commandments of God then I transgress a lot in total ignorance of such.

Acts 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

I am an atheist: I don't believe in a God. You might as well be telling me that I am in violation of Allah, or Zeus.

It is of note concerning sin that we are (according to your world-view) born into it and suffer from hereditary imperfection. I literally cannot help that I am transgressing.

I'm not sure about hereditary imperfection, but I know God can help.

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[Skavau]

I'm not sure about hereditary imperfection, but I know God can help.

Do you think original sin is valid or not? If you do, then you hold that we suffer from hereditary imperfection which would negate your entire world-view into absurdity. You would be endorsing ancestral guilt, which is simply morally indefensible.

If however, we are just unrelatedly born imperfect and thus with the propensity to commit grievances anyway then you have to answer as to why we are held accountable by God for our own nature that he bestowed upon us.

 

[Jacob]

Do you think original sin is valid or not?

I'm not sure. The Bible doesn't speak of original sin, though Theologians may. I know in Ezekiel we are told that we are not judged by God for the sins of our father... that each person, father or son, is judged on their actions alone.

If you do, then you hold that we suffer from hereditary imperfection which would negate your entire world-view into absurdity. You would be endorsing ancestral guilt, which is simply morally indefensible.

If however, we are just unrelatedly born imperfect and thus with the propensity to commit grievances anyway then you have to answer as to why we are held accountable by God for our own nature that he bestowed upon us.

 

[Persephone66]

I don't think He has an eye.



How do you know it is pink? And why is the FSM in Sto-Vo-Kor?

I was being ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous. I mean it's all made up fantasy stuff.

 

[godrulz]

If you had cancer, you would appreciate the cure.

You have a curse of sin and death. We have the cure in the blood of Jesus.

If you want to perish, God will let you, but He has done everything He can so you don't have to. The ball is in your court. If you come on His terms, He will deal with your sin and death problem. If you want to do it your way (Frank Sinatra), then you have made your bed, lie in it, and don't complain on judgment day.

 

[godrulz]

I was being ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous. I mean it's all made up fantasy stuff.

Keep telling yourself that to reinforce your self-deception. It will not change the reality/truth of the matter.

Your biggest issue is not your sexual problems, but your rejection of a loving Creator who loves you and died for you. The only intelligent response is to live for Him on His terms. He can and will set you free, but not against your will.

 

[Persephone66]

Keep telling yourself that to reinforce your self-deception. It will not change the reality/truth of the matter.

Your biggest issue is not your sexual problems, but your rejection of a loving Creator who loves you and died for you. The only intelligent response is to live for Him on His terms. He can and will set you free, but not against your will.

There's no self-deception to reinforce. I live for myself and I am free.

 

[Lovejoy]

I was being ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous. I mean it's all made up fantasy stuff.

And I was trying to match with equally ridiculous questions about your made up fantasy stuff. I had nothing better to do at the time. However, I still want to know how you knew that your invisible unicorn was pink.