toldailytopic: For those unsaved. If it turns out you were wrong and you face God in

[Hilston]

Layla,

This post of yours really grabbed my attention.

Er, yes? I am quite obviously saying that. You may have made choices to widen your studies and experiences, to open yourself up to influences which may help to convince you, but you didn't flip a switch and change your beliefs.

I agree with you. This is very well said.

Capacity for belief doesn't equal conscious control of belief. I disagree that we have any choice in whether or not we believe (and therefore don't agree that we are morally accountable for our beliefs - conscious actions stemming from said beliefs, however, we are accountable for).

But can you be held morally accountable for whether or not you opened yourself up to influences that may have helped to convince you?

Thanks for your post.
Hilston

 

[Skavau]

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny (heaven/hell).

I know this is what you believe. I hold that the criteria above is at best incoherent, at worst sadistic.

Works determines a believers rewards, while decrees of sin determines the lost's degree of punishment. The nature of this is not revealed.

Some believers have death bed conversions and will have little reward/responsibility compared to a life time missionary, for e.g. (but there destiny is the same).

Satan and Hitler will be at a lower level of hell or have a higher degree of punishment than the religious old lady who lived a good life, but did not surrender to Christ as Lord/Savior.

I'm glad to hear you say the above. That is that you do not put the average atheist alongside the likes of Hitler.

You are equating true and false religion. Just because Islam is wrong does not mean Chrsitianity is false.

That was not my point at all. From my perspective both Islam and Christianity are wrong, or rather not demonstrated and undemonstrable. I have no reason from my perspective to fear the Christian repercussion for eternal torture anymore than I do the Islamic one. Both from where I stand could be true.

Faith vs presumption (Kierkegaardian existential blind leap of faith) is based on knowledge (notitia), assent (assensus), and trust (fiducia).

And I need knowledge, assent and trust in order to believe.

It involves our mind and will in response to the convincing/convicting of the Spirit of Truth who points us to Jesus, the Truth. God's Word is also truth. Faith will come by hearing and believing and trusting.

I need to have evidence before I can believe. I cannot just arbitrarily change my mind and accept something as true that I don't actually believe in. I would only be deceiving myself or maintaining appearances and such would be wrong.

 

[Skavau]

But can you be held morally accountable for whether or not you opened yourself up to influences that may have helped to convince you?

No. You could be entirely ignorant to the existence of those influences.

 

[Traditio]

Faith vs presumption (Kierkegaardian existential blind leap of faith) is based on knowledge (notitia), assent (assensus), and trust (fiducia). It involves our mind and will in response to the convincing/convicting of the Spirit of Truth who points us to Jesus, the Truth. God's Word is also truth. Faith will come by hearing and believing and trusting.

You haven't actually read Kierkegaard, have you?

"This man is God-man."

How can I know that? I can assent to it, but how can I possibly know that, or even approximate to an understanding of that? I can't even start to calculate probabilities on this one. It's completely unknowable by me. That's why Kierkegaard calls it "the absurd."

 

[Hilston]

No. You could be entirely ignorant to the existence of those influences.

Then let's amend: Can you be held morally accountable for whether or not you opened yourself up to influences in your awareness that may have helped to convince you?

Hilston

 

[Skavau]

Then let's amend: Can you be held morally accountable for whether or not you opened yourself up to influences in your awareness that may have helped to convince you?

Hilston

No. You might be considered intellectually lazy or apathetic. What if said influences actually did not convince you though and you remained skeptical?

 

[rexlunae]

The Law condemns you as a godless sinner compared to a perfect, holy, righteous God. Who has not lied, stolen, hated, lusted, not loved God with our whole heart, not loved others equal with ourselves, coveted, etc.

I don't see any charges here that are specifically against me. Habeas Corpus. And they range from things which seem like perfectly legitimate things to do to minor offenses. I have faith that a god worth appealing to for justice wouldn't punish them harshly.

As well, even when doing good, or motive can be wrong, selfish, etc.

Some would say it always is. :idunno:

Apart from the character and Law of God, you will justify yourself by comparing yourself to the worst people, not Jesus/God. Rom. 1-5 is truth. You are believing a lie.

I don't really "justify myself" by comparing to others in any case.

 

[SovereigntyIsGods]

It isn't. You can't /choose/ to believe that anything is true. I can't literally choose to believe that Islam is true or Christianity is true. I have to be convinced that they are true as before I can believe. It is why Pascal's Wager is a fallacy and it is why the entire notion of redemption through thought is incoherent.

Look at this, world, the atheists understand better than most Christians.

 

[coulter4president]

they know they're wrong

they know they're wrong

i dont think they will be surprised.

Everyone knows he needs God & needs to have his sins washed off his soul. If he chooses not to do that its cus he... feels he doesn't want to be saved... but forever (Hell) is a very long time... so we all need to keep them in our prayers always

anyone over, say, the age of 40, esp in this USA, has heard the gospel & been exposed to Christians, imperfect as they always are.. But despite the imperfections of Christ's followers, everyone knows that Jesus is the truth... Otherwise they wouldn't accuse Christians of being hypocrites..

 

[Skavau]

Everyone knows he needs God & needs to have his sins washed off his soul.

I don't. I don't believe in a God. I'm an atheist. I also don't believe in the notion of 'sin'.

If he chooses not to do that its cus he... feels he doesn't want to be saved... but forever (Hell) is a very long time...

I don't 'choose' not to do it. I cant do it. I don't believe in God. I cannot force myself to believe in something that I don't think is true.

anyone over, say, the age of 40, esp in this USA, has heard the gospel & been exposed to Christians, imperfect as they always are.. But despite the imperfections of Christ's followers, everyone knows that Jesus is the truth... Otherwise they wouldn't accuse Christians of being hypocrites..

I don't know Jesus is the truth. I don't believe in Jesus. I don't accept the concept of vicarious redemption. Whether or not I refer to Christians as hypocrites has nothing to do with it. I actually only call people hypocrites if I spot hypocrisy.

 

[godrulz]

There is enough evidence to believe, even without all the answers.

We think we must see to believe (some truth), but Jesus said to believe and then you will see. Those who act on the light they have will receive more light (otherwise rejecting it would only lead to further hardening/judgment).

 

[Squishes]

There is enough evidence to believe, even without all the answers.

Like what?

 

[godrulz]

Like what?

Something does not come from nothing. Complexity to this degree does not come from chaos. Personal/moral does not come from impersonal.

Creation, the person and work of Jesus Christ, the Bible/Word of God, conscience, etc. all screams that there is something beyond us who is intelligent, good, powerful.

It takes more faith to believe a godless world view.

My work partner bought a 50K Rolex watch. I was would stupid to not see intelligent design behind it. It did not just come together by shaking parts in a box. If it did, where did the precision parts come from to begin with? Man and universe are vastly more complex than a wristwatch.

 

[rexlunae]

Something does not come from nothing. Complexity to this degree does not come from chaos. Personal/moral does not come from impersonal.

Creation, the person and work of Jesus Christ, the Bible/Word of God, conscience, etc. all screams that there is something beyond us who is intelligent, good, powerful.

My work partner bought a 50K Rolex watch. I was would stupid to not see intelligent design behind it. It did not just come together by shaking parts in a box. If it did, where did the precision parts come from to begin with? Man and universe are vastly more complex than a wristwatch.

And if you disagree, you deserve eternal punishment? Sounds rather unjust to me.

 

[Jacob]

And if you disagree, you deserve eternal punishment? Sounds rather unjust to me.

If you disagree with God you are essentially rebelling against God.

 

[rexlunae]

If you disagree with God you are essentially rebelling against God.

I'm disagreeing with godrulz. If God has taken a position, he hasn't been very clear about it, which makes one wonder how it can be construed as a rebellion.

 

[godrulz]

And if you disagree, you deserve eternal punishment? Sounds rather unjust to me.

The issue is not being right or wrong about a quiz. I gave mental assent to the coherence and truth of Christianity, but would have gone to hell. The issue is receiving or rejecting the person and work of Christ, not having all the answers. God is holy/just. Man is sinful by choice. Only Christ can bridge the gap. God would be unjust to not punish sin. He provided a substitute for the penalty of sin. We cannot save ourselves.

You underestimate His holiness and responsibility as a Moral Governor of the universe and overestimate your goodness (which still falls short of His standard of perfection).

Unless the Spirit convicts you of sin through the Law of God, you will not see the need for a sinless Savior.

Those who do not even believe He exists are also actively suppressing truth despite the evidence. In the end, there will be no exuse before God. Hundreds of millions have seen the Light and been changed by it. Those who are in darkness have great difficulty understanding.

If you become a believer, things will fall into place quicker.

 

[godrulz]

I'm disagreeing with godrulz. If God has taken a position, he hasn't been very clear about it, which makes one wonder how it can be construed as a rebellion.

The Bible is very clear about these essential things.:think:

 

[Jacob]

I'm disagreeing with godrulz. If God has taken a position, he hasn't been very clear about it, which makes one wonder how it can be construed as a rebellion.

I didn't look very closely at your disagreement, sorry.

I was thinking some people believe God to be unfair because they have to believe in Him or repent of their ways to be in fellowship with Him.

And yet we find that God is the one who initiates the change, in calling people to Himself.

Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

 

[rexlunae]

The Bible is very clear about these essential things.:think:

And yet not clear to me that the Bible is written, endorsed, or otherwise supported by any real god.