toldailytopic: Do you believe in reincarnation?

Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 25th, 2012 10:29 AM


toldailytopic: Do you believe in reincarnation?






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Paulos

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Reincarnation is not generally considered to be compatible with orthodox Christian teaching (although some schools of Judaism do believe in reincarnation). In order to understand the mindset behind the belief in reincarnation, I offer this quote from Tattva-Viveka, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, p. 35-36:

Some philosophers say that because of the first living entity's sin all the other living entities are imprisoned in the material world. Later, punishing Himself for their sins, God delivers the living entities.

Deliberating on the virtues and faults of this world, some moralistic monotheists concluded that the material world is not a place of pure happiness. Indeed, the sufferings outweigh the pleasures. They claim that the material world is a prison to punish the living entities. If there is punishment, then there must be a crime. If there were no crime, then why would there be any punishment? What crime did the living entities commit? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea. God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being, the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from that garden into the material world filled with sufferings. Because of their offense, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offense, God Himself took birth in a humanlike form, took on His own shoulders the sins of His followers, and then died. All who follow Him easily attain liberation, and all who do not follow Him fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes Himself, and thus liberates the living entities.

An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this. These philosophers say that the living entity's life begins at birth and ends with death. After death, he is not born again. After death he attains the results of his actions in that one lifetime. To accept this mixed-up religion one must first believe these rather implausible things:

"The living entity's life begins at birth and ends at death. Before birth the living entity did not exist, and after death the living entity will no longer stay in the world of material activities. Only human beings have souls. Other creatures do not have souls."​

Only extremely unintelligent persons believe this religion. In this religion the living entity is not spiritual in nature. By His own will God created the living entities out of matter. Why are the living entities born into very different situations? The followers of this religion cannot say. Why is one living entity born into a house filled with sufferings, another living entity born into a house filled with joys, another living entity born into the house of a person devoted to God, and another living entity born into a wicked atheist's house? Why is one person born in a situation where he is encouraged to perform pious deeds, and he performs pious deeds and becomes good? Why is another person born in a situation where he is encouraged to sin, and he sins and becomes bad? The followers of this religion cannot answer all these questions. Their religion seems to say that God is unfair and irrational.

Why do they say that animals have no souls? Why do birds and beasts not have souls like human beings? Why do the human beings have only one life, and, because of their actions in that one life are rewarded in eternal heaven or punished with eternal hell? Any person who believes in a truly kind and merciful God will find this religion completely unacceptable.​

Source: http://www.krishnamedia.org/e-books/Tattva-Viveka.pdf
 
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Nathon Detroit

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God says.... "And as it is appointed for men to die once,"

Therefore reincarnation is false.

I have relatives who love the notion of reincarnation, they often fantasize about who the new children born into the family used to be. I find that offensive and frankly down-right creepy. To think my beautiful young daughter was some creepy old dude who recently died makes me want to vomit.
 

Jordan Fontenot

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 25th, 2012 10:29 AM


toldailytopic: Do you believe in reincarnation?






Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.
If by dying to sin but being brought to life in the Body of Christ you mean reincarnation then yes.
 

Paulos

New member
Reincarnation is taught within Judaism--or at least certain branches of Judaism. Here is what an article on Chabad.org has to say about it:

Reincarnation: A Second Go

Each individual soul is dispatched to the physical world with its own individualized mission to accomplish. As Jews, we all have the same Torah with the same 613 mitzvot; but each of us has his or her own set of challenges, distinct talents and capabilities, and particular mitzvot which form the crux of his or her mission in life.

At times, a soul may not conclude its mission in a single lifetime. In such cases, it returns to earth for a "second go" to complete the job. This is the concept of gilgul neshamot--commonly referred to as "reincarnation"--extensively discussed in the teachings of Kabbalah. This is why we often find ourselves powerfully drawn to a particular mitzvah or cause and make it the focus of our lives, dedicating to it a seemingly disproportionate part of our time and energy: it is our soul gravitating to the "missing pieces" of its Divinely-ordained purpose.

Indeed, the Kabbalists say that these days--after 6,000 years of human history--a "new" soul is a rarity; the overwhelming majority of us are reincarnated souls, returned to earth to fill the gaps of a previous lifetime.​

Source: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

For more information, here is a link to a list of articles on reincarnation from Chabad.org:

http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/6569/jewish/Reincarnation.htm
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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toldailytopic: Do you believe in reincarnation?


No.


But this did remind me of a funny joke from Jeff Dunham and his dummy, Walter (a grumpy old man who was always complaining about his nagging wife).

Walter
walter.jpg



Jeff asked Walter if reincarnation were true, who would he want to come back as.
Walter said he would come back as his wife and leave him the hell alone!
 

Traditio

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Banned
Reincarnation is a dumb belief which has, in my view, been demonstrably disproved by Aristotle in De Anima and has been authoritatively rejected both by the Scriptures and by the Holy Catholic Church.
 

Paulos

New member
Reincarnation is a dumb belief which has, in my view, been demonstrably disproved by Aristotle in De Anima and has been authoritatively rejected both by the Scriptures and by the Holy Catholic Church.

I would appreciate your analysis of my quote from Bhaktivinoda Thakur's Tattva-Viveka (post #2) if you can find the time, good sir.

In order to properly understand the rational behind reincarnation, one must understand the origin of the spirit-soul. Specifically, is the spirit-soul created at the moment of conception, or is it eternal? Those who believe in reincarnation hold that the spirit is eternal. Bhaktivinoda Thakur writes the following in numerous books:

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahma-jyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahma-jyoti is the jiva. The brahma-jyoti, the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas). The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahma-jyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms. Generally, souls emanate from the brahma-jyoti which is living and growing. The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna (God) and they are spiritual but atomic.

The jiva-purusa should inquire about two locations, the material world and the spiritual world. The jiva appeared by the marginal energy at the dividing line between spirit and matter. The jiva is situated in a third position, called svapna sthana, on the border between these two places. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. Situated in this marginal place, he can see both the material and spiritual worlds.

In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. Within the brahma-jyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. Although spiritual and conscious by nature, the jiva lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. From that position, he began to gaze at the spiritual and material worlds. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication. When it chooses to enter the material world, it becomes contaminated by the modes of nature (i.e., goodness, passion, and ignorance). That is said to be the spirit soul.

Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

Due to being situated in the marginal position, living entities who are averse to Hari assume the nature of mixed consciousness; in other words, when the marginal energy living entities mix with the external energy, they consider themselves the enjoyers and then enter the material world. The cause of the spirit soul's coming to live in this world in aversion to Krsna is his misuse of his free will. When this aversion becomes strong, the living entities accept a material mind and body in order to enjoy the temporary material world and thus come under the control of fruitive reactions.

Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayika-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when he becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Those who, by their own free will, became bewildered and became greedy for maya situated on the opposite side, being beckoned by maya, then became attracted to the material universe, and were thrown in the universe by Karanarnavasayi Visnu, the controller of maya. That was but the result of their eternal aversion to the Supreme Lord. The moment they entered the material realm, they became overcome by ignorance, the function of maya. Overcome by ignorance, they fell into the wheel of binding karma in order to become fully absorbed in their task. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies that are provided by prakrti. When the thoughts of a jiva in the tatastha realm, which is in between the spiritual and material worlds, gravitates towards independence and its accompanying temporal, material pleasures; the immediate result is forced descent to the material universes. The satanic frenzy in which the jiva dislikes the blissful and eternal service of his Master and prefers to quench his thirstful desires of enjoying matter, opens before him a perpetual spring of liquid fire and poison at which he begins to drink deep. Thus in going to lord it over Maya, jiva became enslaved by her.

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. The moment that the jivas desire to enjoy independently while gazing at the two banks of the river, they become averse to Krsna (God), who is like the sun.

This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginning-less.

Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective, there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself.

Those jivas who were attracted somewhat to realization of the Supreme Person became desirous of the spiritual realm because of that contact of knowledge. They then obtained strength from the hladini potency of the abundant cit sakti, which made them favorable to the Lord eternally, and they were brought into the spiritual world as associates of the Lord. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world, they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. Lying in between the cit (internal spiritual) and acit (external deluding cosmic) potencies of the Lord, the jiva souls are freed from the shackles of the triple qualities of maya by the loving service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss.​

Reference: http://gosai.com/writings/jivas-and-the-marginal-plane
 
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Nang

TOL Subscriber
Absolutely not!

TOL was recently bombarded with anti-Trinitarians . . . now it is being bombarded with the eastern mysticisms of pre-existence (in all its various shades of teachings)!

That is why I am attempting to warn others of the false teaching of recent members who have joined TOL, in order to sell what they call "PCE" beliefs.

It is just another version of eastern mystical religions . . . that are similarly gained from teaching "reincarnation" and/or "pre-existence" of souls, that does not accord with the Genesis accounts of creation.

Very wrong, and very bad stuff, IMO.

Nang
 

OMEGA

New member
RE-INCARNATION is a Doctrine of Demons :devil::devil:

which was introduced into the thoughts of men circa 1200 BCE

Its purpose was to distract people from the Plain Truth of the Bible.
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Conceptual definition of the word "reincarnation" derives from Latin,

literally meaning, "entering the flesh again". :box:

The Greek equivalent metempsychosis (μετεμψύχωσις)

roughly corresponds to the common English phrase "transmigration of the soul":juggle:
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Charity

New member
Ever been asked this statement/question?

“who do you think you are, the Queen of Sheba?”

Oh such confidence! where on earth do christian opportunities begin an end. I highly recommend that christians rip all the Pages concerning the Kingdom of David, Solomon an the queen of Sheba out of there bibles.
even A Pagans heart quotes OF Jesus Final prophecy as his time came close. shhh's....pehaps THE MOST shocking denial

Condemnation is hence for the well rested, OR RESTED WELL?
 
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