I don't care for your intellectual legalism. :wave2:
toldailytopic: Can a saved person lose their salvation?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
I don't care for your intellectual legalism. :wave2:
Cracked
New member
Let's think on that for a second... and I'm going to pick on you Nick M, which will probably upset you, but I am trying to make a point, not make you mad...
If I, of my own freewill, believe exactly like Nick M does even for a second--which seems to be his requirement for salvation--then I should be "saved" for all time.
Here is the problem though--if I ever stop believing in what Nick M believes, or perhaps commit a certain sin (admittedly I am not really sure about this), that is proof that I never really believed in the first place. So, that means that once I believe Nick M's understanding of the gospel, I lose the capacity to change my mind or even do other things that perhaps Nick M has deemed impossible for a true Christian to do.
This leads to a kind of disturbing conclusion: if Nick M ever changes his mind about the requirements he has up this point found essential for salvation, then he himself has lost his salvation--which is impossible according to the theology often touted here. Thus, if he ever admits to making a mistake in regard to necessary belief the only conclusion he has left open is that he was never saved in the first place, and is likely a child of the devil (what he calls others who preach a "false" gospel). He is forced to recalculate and then claim a new, truly unimpeachable (this time), theology to require of all other Christians (i.e., Kmo's intellectual legalism).
Nick, perhaps you and others who share similar beliefs are caught in an intellectual trap of your own making? If not, you now have a great opportunity:
What are the absolutely essential, unimpeachable, and thoroughly undeniable beliefs one must have in order to receive salvation for all time?
Jedidiah
New member
Dear Cracked,
The only belief a man must have is that God has raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.
Salvation for all time comes through believing the above, and confessing with one's mouth the risen Lord Jesus Christ Rom10:9, which is a complete surrendering of one's will to Him.
As I have already mentioned earlier ITT, that's what 'Lord' means; it's not Jesus' first name, nor Jesus' honorary title; Christians have surrendered their will to Him for all time, committing their lives into His hands, and He has reached into our bodies, and claimed Us as His and as Him, as a member of His flesh and bone Body.
Many who have confessed with their mouths the risen Lord Jesus Christ, who have verbally, audibly uttered something like, "Jesus Christ is Lord," or, "I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ," or, "I believe in You, Lord Jesus," or anything that indicates physical (not just mental) submission to Him, already believe what I wrote above, even if they are not currently aware enough to realize it. There are a lot of Christians in and through Whom the risen Lord Jesus Christ has been living and working for a very long time, without the Christians having even known it, because they are unaware what 'Lord' means, and they do not realize what they have done in confessing with their mouths the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
In Him,
-Jed
Jedidiah
New member
Dear Cracked,
Apologies in advance for the [brackets]...
The Christian "[has] been crucified with Christ; it is no longer [he] who [lives], but Christ lives in [him]; and the life which [he] now [lives] in the flesh [he lives] by faith in the Son of God, who loved [him] and gave Himself for [him]" Gal2:20.
Therefore the Christian cannot sin, and he always manifests the will of Christ in everything that he does.
The short answer is: Faith without works is impossible, not dead.
In Him,
-Jed
Cracked
New member
Gotcha. I think most Christians will disagree with you on this--to a greater or lesser extent. However, they would agree:
So, are they saved? Or, is there anything else?
Jedidiah
New member
Dear Cracked,
In Him,
-Jed
Who are they ? What do you mean by, "is there anything else?" and why did you emphasize anything ?
In Him,
-Jed
Cracked
New member
Most of those who argue the same points you do on TOL (at least) require a strict understanding of certain beliefs in order to be "saved." If one does not possess this certain, never fully defined (strangely), set of beliefs, they are a "child of the devil" or "pervert" or some such vilification. Works or adherence to a will of any kind is not suggested and generally viciously attacked--except for in case of a few certain, presumably, particularly heinous sins. Like you, they say that you can't sin, OSAS, etc. Some (but not all) suggest, like you, that no matter what a Christian does they do the will of God.
My question to you, and to Nick M and anyone else who preaches/has preached this or a similar theology on TOL is this:
Are the people who:
"...believe that God has raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead. Salvation for all time comes through believing the above, and confessing with one's mouth the risen Lord Jesus Christ Rom10:9..." saved? If not, what other beliefs are necessary? Please be specific.
Jedidiah
New member
Dear Cracked,
Okay, thank you for the clarification.
In this case, I did already answer your question, exactly, in this post above:
I guess I just need to add the qualifier that there is no qualification.
There is no other belief necessary, doctrinal, political, behavioral, etc., etc., etc.
Of course I can't, and I won't speak for any other posters. Many mention believing 1Co15:3-4 as necessary for salvation, but strictly speaking, I don't believe that believing 1Co15:3-4 is necessary for salvation (though I do believe 1Co15:3-4), except for the overlap between it and Rom10:9. I am very strict about Rom10:9. If a man follows Rom10:9 to the letter, I couldn't imagine why he wouldn't also/eventually believe 1Co15:3-4, but again strictly speaking, believing 1Co15:3-4 is not necessary for salvation, except for the overlap with Rom10:9.
As I explained above, confessing with your mouth the risen Lord Jesus Christ is devastating to who we are, and does Us in.
In Him,
-Jed
Actually it's kind of the opposite.
However, I do believe that once someone has known grace they will not be able to reject, or resist, it.
:crackup:
The converse also applies. One of the so called mysteries (whitewashed inconsistencies) of some theological systems is that you say that at the point you chose to believe in Christ, it was you who chose but after you believe it becomes true that it was Jesus who chose you. This is a kind of re-writing of history or historical dualism if you like.
It's the same reason I put the U in my parody of Calvinism in my signature. "Uncertain Salvation". You are certain you are elect because you have faith and good works but as soon as you cease to do those things and fall away, history is re-written and it turns out that you were never elect at all.
Calvin had an answer to this: he said that sometimes the Spirit operates on an inferior level in the reprobate giving both them and other believers the impression that they are saved, whilst only the elect are.
Whilst I assert that the choices we make affect our future and that we can and indeed often do resist the working of the Spirit, I would never suggest that the Spirit itself would, having once predestined someone to damnation, then deliberately give them an experience of God which is less than perfect “the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse”. (Institutes Book 2 Ch.3, 11) Unfortunately for the poor believer who wants to be assured of his salvation, the little comfort that he may have received in the knowledge that his desire to be saved and to love God is a sign that he is predestined to salvation, is turned to ice with the possibility that God may only be letting him think that he is saved in order to judge him even harder later on when he turns away.
And besides, this only applies to those who have apparently accepted the Gospel and then fallen away. What could be said about those who have not heard the Gospel, do they have a good excuse because they have not had a better conviction, because the have not received this ‘inferior operation of the Spirit’? Calvin does not expand on the subjective nature of the assurance which guarantees salvation and which according to him distinguishes those who are saved from those who are not. He of course cannot, because, as he must admit, there is no difference. All of us who have received the Spirit, receive the same Spirit and the same assurance and all of us are free to reject it at any time. The subjective feeling of assurance we have is the seal of the Spirit on all who have chosen to commit themselves to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. It is an affirmation of God’s love for us in the chosen one, Jesus, and has nothing to do with a predestined election one way or the other.
Cracked
New member
I will read this more carefully later, but I wanted to thank you for your direct answer. :thumb:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yes kmo, a person can believe the gospel, be saved, and then be seduced (not having on the armour) and become so confused that they are not sure what they believe...or if they believe at all.
But, what God does when a person believes the gospel of Christ (identifying them with Christ's death-burial-resurrection, circumcision, baptism into the Body) is what I maintain that will never be reversed.
Saved is saved. :e4e:
*
Amen, this is why "and was buried" is essential to the gospel according to Paul, our old self is buried now all that is left to us is to walk in newness of life.
heir
TOL Subscriber
All this time spent on TOL seeing the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and eternal security preached, the seal of the Holy Spirit (guarantee) that is placed upon the believer the moment they trust in the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in their place and you reject it.
If there was never a point that you trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth you are lost. At the very least you are being tossed to and fro and are being carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
I'm sad for you
He also denies that Jesus is God, so it pretty much seals the deal for him. Sad indeedAll this time spent on TOL seeing the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and eternal security preached, the seal of the Holy Spirit (guarantee) that is placed upon the believer the moment they trust in the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in their place and you reject it.
If there was never a point that you trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth you are lost. At the very least you are being tossed to and fro and are being carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
I'm sad for you
Not Possible.
Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Cruciform
New member
Quite possible.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Answered before. Works Salvation is heretical.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
zippy2006
New member
Or you are :idunno: