toldailytopic: Can a saved person lose their salvation?

[heir]

I have.

That's great

Or you are deceived.

Nope. I believe all who have trusted the Lord in the dispensation of the gospel are saved and are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 KJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[heir]

but
the real question is

are you saved?

I don't think so

I am, but you are not by your own admission. Your religion will drag you to hell and it seems, willingly.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Dear zippy2006,The incantation is part of it, and the belief in the heart that God has raised Him from the dead is part of it. We're physically, neurologically coordinating the verbal confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, with our honest and wholehearted belief that He has been raised from the dead. About the man Whom God has raised from the dead, named Jesus, Who has been made Lord and Christ, we call Him, Lord.

Lord's not Jesus' first name. We know what Lord means. It means, when we call Someone else Lord, that we are a possession, a subject, a supplicant, a slave. And when we call Jesus Christ Lord, He is in control from then on.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

 

[Jedidiah]

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

Is it possible to call Him Lord, Lord, and not do as He says ?
How do you know ?
By what standard can you judge whether a man is doing what His Lord says ?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Is it possible to call Him Lord, Lord, and not do as He says ?

Matthew 21:28-31 28But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.​

How do you know ?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?​

By what standard can you judge whether a man is doing what His Lord says ?

Romans 14:10-13,21-23 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. ​

 

[Jedidiah]

Matthew 21:28-31 28But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.​

So we are the sons of God.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?​

So we can know ourselves, without anybody judging for us.

Romans 14:10-13,21-23 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. ​

So the Lord will judge us Himself then, and it is not up to us and especially not up to anybody else but the Lord.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So we can know ourselves, without anybody judging for us.
So the Lord will judge us Himself then, and it is not up to us and especially not up to anybody else but the Lord.

Don't forget the part about not putting a stumbling stone in front of others.
Some believers are "weak" and can perish if they try to follow the examples of the strong believers.

1 Corinthians 8:9-13 9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.​

 

[Jedidiah]

Don't forget the part about not putting a stumbling stone in front of others.
Some believers are "weak" and can perish if they try to follow the examples of the strong believers.

1 Corinthians 8:9-13 9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.​

What should we do with the "weak" so that they become strong, instead of just remain "weak" ?

 

[genuineoriginal]

What should we do with the "weak" so that they become strong, instead of just remain "weak" ?

Nurture them without giving them cause to stumble and give them time to grow in the spirit.

Ephesians 4:11-13 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:​

Otherwise they will end up like the seeds that fell in the stony ground and will perish.

 

[Jedidiah]

Nurture them without giving them cause to stumble and give them time to grow in the spirit.

Ephesians 4:11-13 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:​

Otherwise they will end up like the seeds that fell in the stony ground and will perish.

Dear genuineoriginal,

I can't think of more of a cause to stumble than to deceive them into thinking that they can do anything on their own.
I think Gal6:2-3 explains quite clearly that we are to bring down the proud by any means necessary, bearing their burdens, and fulfilling the law of Christ.

In Him,
-Jed

 

[kmoney]

That's great


Nope. I believe all who have trusted the Lord in the dispensation of the gospel are saved and are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 KJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Yeah but who knows what could happen on the day of redemption.

 

[S0Z0]

Yeah but who knows what could happen on the day of redemption.

You know what that word means, right?

 

[kmoney]

Dear kmoney,I'm really basic, if you've done Romans 10:9-10, then you're saved. I happen to share this view that you mentioned above with you, in this way, according to this reasoning:

So long as you've done Romans 10:9-10, then the Lord may lead you to hold any number of views that diverge with whatever we call orthodoxy at any given moment in time. He has a purpose for everything He brings Us through, the Lord. We don't always - or hardly ever - know ahead of time why He's leading Us this way or that way, and sometimes we even lose all perceptible faith in Him at all, but if we've done Romans 10:9-10 then we're still saved, and it's actually the Lord living in Us Who is - for His own glorious purposes - driving Us to do, say, and believe whatever it is that we do, say and believe, all the time.

That's just what I think.

I would issue the same warning that zippy did, against having some magical formula that you can simply say and then you are saved. But after reading your subsequent posts to zippy and GO, I don't think you do have a magical formula like that.

:e4e:

That's one of the most level headed explanations for Unitarianism I've ever seen, kmoney. :up:

Thanks. :noid:

Consider this. Before the Lord came, the hierarchy of mankind went like this: The Father, Man, Woman, Child. The hierarchy within the subgroup Man went something like: Priest/Prophet/King (depending upon a lot things, either one of these might be at the top at any given moment in time), the rest of us plebs.

Since the Lord came, since the Gospel has been revealed, the new hierarchy is: The Father, the Son (Prophet, Priest and King; the risen Lord Jesus Christ), Man, Woman, Child. Now speaking purely fleshly, it makes sense to me that the old hierarchy was broken, which is why it had to be fixed, and between the pure spirit of the Father and the pure flesh of Man, there had to be a mediator, Who was both Spirit and flesh, both God and Man, so that, as opposed to Blaise Pascal, who said that there is a God-shaped vacuum within Man that can only be filled up with God, Paul implied that there is a Man-shaped vacuum that can only be filled up with God, and this Man/God is the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

That's just what I think.

Anyway, good post.

In Him,
-Jed

:e4e:

 

[kmoney]

You know what that word means, right?

Yes.

 

[S0Z0]

Yes.

Okay, then you were just being facetious. Got it :up:

 

[kmoney]

Okay, then you were just being facetious. Got it :up:

Got it wrong.

 

[heir]

Yeah but who knows what could happen on the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Philippians 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[zippy2006]

Nope. I believe all who have trusted the Lord in the dispensation of the gospel are saved and are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you read a bit closer you would see your error:

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

It is not a past event; it could be rendered "are being saved."

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved...

1 Cor 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Paul gives a condition and follows it by noting the fact that it is possible to believe in vain. Quite the opposite of what you try to imply.

Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Again, this is not a past event. Catholics use such phrases all the time ("By grace you are saved"). It is not yet brought to completion; we are being saved always by the grace of God (Phil 1:6). Paul even speaks of he himself falling away in 1 Cor 9:27.

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Do your homework and you'll find that this is speaking of a promissory note, or a down payment, not a full payment. It is a taste of the Holy Spirit and the promise of salvation. But are those who have tasted the Holy Spirit 100% secure?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[S0Z0]

If you read a bit closer you would see your error:



It is not a past event; it could be rendered "are being saved."

That doesn't change a thing. False teachers have missed this for centuries, so I can see why you did.

The wording and the context is similar to the dying of cloth.

Just as a cloth is "being dyed" (which is an event), so are those who are "being saved". Paul is speaking of those who have been transferred from darkness to light, from death to life. It is an event of those who were lost and are now "being saved".

 

[zippy2006]

Paul is speaking of those who have been transferred from darkness to light, from death to life. It is an event of those who were lost and are now "being saved".

Right, baptism. :thumb: Doesn't imply OSAS :nono: