The Trinity

[Clete]

I'm pretty sure it's because RD understood what I was trying to express, which was along these lines.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

They "receiveth not" is the "unwillingness to accept" which is what you're saying.

And it's their PRIDE that keeps them from receiving and accepting what is plainly written.
There are times I marvel at their seeming "inability" to hear when it's really nothing more than man's pride.

Right!

And I understand that there is such thing as a depraved mind. The only thing I was guarding against is the idea that sound reason somehow works differently for human beings than it does for anyone else, including God. Understanding is understanding. As human beings, ee may have limited information, intelligence and wisdom compared to God but the process of thought still works the same and the concept of understanding is identical. The difference is only in degree not type.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Matthew 7: 16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Galatians 3: 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Matthew 5: 22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


(it is very easy to tell who regards the Words of the Christ of GOD as life and who disregard the teachings as if faith is of no effect and actions are of no consequence.)

I have plenty of cause to call you a fool and you are not my brother in any sense of the word.

 

[popsthebuilder]

That's the gospel, pops! I mean that is the core belief of the entire Christian faith. That God came to man, in the form of a man so that He could die the death we deserve. The fact that is was God doing the dying (i.e. not just a man) is what makes the death sufficient to satisfy justice and pay the sin debt for the whole of mankind.

I Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.​

I just read the bible and believe what it teaches. God the Son died. His soul/spirit was separated from both His physical body and from the Father. This is what it means to die. It does not mean that one ceases to exist nor does it mean that the universe would wink out of existence if God the Son spent three days in the grave (i.e. in the place of the righteous dead). Why would it mean that?


No one denies this. Your meaning of the word 'eternal' is clearly classical in nature which is unbiblical but in the context of this discussion, it is not in dispute nor is it even relevant. The fact that God the Son died on that cross and spent three days separated from both His body and from the Father has nothing to do with the infinite, never beginning and never ending, nature of God.


I couldn't care less what you think is disheartening, pops. You aren't going to shame me into altering my doctrine. Besides, the same one Who died is the same One who created everything (John 1). How could that possibly be construed by anyone as having limited God to creation?

Resting in Him,
Clete

You say you simply read the Bible and believe so please show me where is says GOD the Son. Then show me where it says the gospel is that GOD killed itself as a payment for GOD or the law or justice which are all of GOD. Show that Christ being crucified means GOD being killed and not a human body that GOD dwelled in from conception. You act as if there was no GOD until GOD created the man Jesus.

If you think GOD isn't eternal then you are wasting more than just my time.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I have plenty of cause to call you a fool and you are not my brother in any sense of the word.

We aren't to call any fool.

We are to regard our enemy as our brother.

What good comes from calling a friend brother and casting away an enemy?


You are yet another who seems to have zero faith in the actual teachings of the Christ of GOD.

Regardless of if you care about what I feel or not; it is indeed, disheartening to me and should be to any other believer.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Notice that you did not address any of the scriptures that I gave and the explanation.

I did. I called your verses irrelevant to the topic at hand.

That is NOT debating what you are doing. You are merely stating your beliefs and insulting.

Please quote my post and bold where I insulted you. I dare you.

Otherwise, stop bearing false witness against your neighbor.

By the way, being anointed does not take away from the fact that Jesus is the Christ, God, Messiah, Lord,

Christ and Messiah mean the same thing, GT. That's the point being made here. No one is denying that He is God. Please stay on topic.

and Father come in the flesh.

Son != Father

JR, haven't you read and heard that there is only one God and no one else like Him?

I agree completely. However...

This is not what is being discussed.

Another thing---

Messiah means Deliverer, Savior.

Those names are God the Father's names.

They are also Jesus' names.

They both have the same name because they are the same.

Messiah means anointed. It cannot mean anything else. Gt, I want you to find an online definition of Messiah that says Messiah means deliverer or savior.

Here's the one I found:

I ignore nothing. He was with God because He is the words of God and WAS GOD.

You have ignored the entire point that's currently being made and tried to change the topic to something else.

Are you not your words? Are your words not with you?

No, I am not my words, nor are my words with me.

I speak words, but I cannot take them back once said.

 

[JudgeRightly]

We aren't to call any fool.

“Judge not, that you be not judged.For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. - Matthew 7:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:1-5&version=NKJV

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” - John 7:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John7:24&version=NKJV

We are to regard our enemy as our brother.

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? - 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians6:2-3&version=NKJV

What good comes from calling a friend brother and casting away an enemy?

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. - Matthew 7:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:6&version=NKJV

You are yet another who seems to have zero faith in the actual teachings of the Christ of GOD.

Regardless of if you care about what I feel or not; it is indeed, disheartening to me and should be to any other believer.

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.For “who has known the mind of the L ord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. - 1 Corinthians 2:15-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians2:15-16&version=NKJV

 

[steko]

Steko wants to use the fact that others are anointed. Others being anointed does not make Jesus not God/Lord/Spirit.

I'm not arguing that the Lord Jesus is not GOD.

I'm arguing that the words 'anointed/mashiyach/messiah/christos/christ' do not mean 'GOD'.

You don't seem to be able to follow an argument closely, logically, step by step.

I spent hours about a year ago discussing with you this same thing, to no avail.

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is GOD come in the flesh, but the word 'christ' does not mean 'God', it means 'anointed'.

If you refuse to see and admit this very basic and simple point, then there is no need in trying to proceed any further.

 

[popsthebuilder]

“Judge not, that you be not judged.For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. - Matthew 7:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:1-5&version=NKJV

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” - John 7:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John7:24&version=NKJV



Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? - 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians6:2-3&version=NKJV



“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. - Matthew 7:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:6&version=NKJV



But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.For “who has known the mind of the L ord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. - 1 Corinthians 2:15-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians2:15-16&version=NKJV

Is it your believe that we are to call other believers fool, or idiot, or stupid?

Do you think your enimy isn't to be regarded as your friend?

Go ahead and ask for the scripture; that's what you do.....

 

[JudgeRightly]

Is it your believe that we are to call other believers fool,

Not my belief. It's what the Bible says to do if they are being foolish. "Judge with righteous judgment."

or idiot,

And if they are being an idiot.

or stupid?

And if they are being stupid.

Do you think your enimy isn't to be regarded as your friend?

I think that you're trying to apply something that was taught as guidelines for life in God's Millennial Kingdom to how we are supposed to live today.

I love my enemies, enough to warn them that what they do is harmful, and that they should repent.

Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. - Romans 12:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:9&version=NKJV

Go ahead and ask for the scripture; that's what you do.....

I know you cannot provide it, because your position is not taught by Scripture.

 

[God's Truth]

I would agree, yes.

Thank you humbly for not attacking my testimony.

....peace

I did more than not just attack it.

 

[God's Truth]

That's the gospel, pops! I mean that is the core belief of the entire Christian faith. That God came to man, in the form of a man so that He could die the death we deserve. The fact that is was God doing the dying (i.e. not just a man) is what makes the death sufficient to satisfy justice and pay the sin debt for the whole of mankind.

I Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.​

I just read the bible and believe what it teaches. God the Son died. His soul/spirit was separated from both His physical body and from the Father. This is what it means to die. It does not mean that one ceases to exist nor does it mean that the universe would wink out of existence if God the Son spent three days in the grave (i.e. in the place of the righteous dead). Why would it mean that?


No one denies this. Your meaning of the word 'eternal' is clearly classical in nature which is unbiblical but in the context of this discussion, it is not in dispute nor is it even relevant. The fact that God the Son died on that cross and spent three days separated from both His body and from the Father has nothing to do with the infinite, never beginning and never ending, nature of God.


I couldn't care less what you think is disheartening, pops. You aren't going to shame me into altering my doctrine. Besides, the same one Who died is the same One who created everything (John 1). How could that possibly be construed by anyone as having limited God to creation?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Jesus didn't die Spiritually. That is ludicrous. No spirit dies.

 

[Right Divider]

Right!

And I understand that there is such thing as a depraved mind. The only thing I was guarding against is the idea that sound reason somehow works differently for human beings than it does for anyone else, including God. Understanding is understanding. As human beings, ee may have limited information, intelligence and wisdom compared to God but the process of thought still works the same and the concept of understanding is identical. The difference is only in degree not type.

Clete

I totally agree. I believe that this would be part of what "made in His image" includes.

 

[Clete]

You say you simply read the Bible and believe so please show me where is says GOD the Son. Then show me where it says the gospel is that GOD killed itself as a payment for GOD or the law or justice which are all of GOD. Show that Christ being crucified means GOD being killed and not a human body that GOD dwelled in from conception. You act as if there was no GOD until GOD created the man Jesus.

If you think GOD isn't eternal then you are wasting more than just my time.

Unresponsive. You don't get to deflect with me, pops.

The whole point of the crucifixion was to satisfy justice, otherwise, there was no need for Jesus to die at all or even to have become a man in the first place. If all God needed was a lump of human flesh to bleed and die, He could have done that without having to forsake His Son who was the Creator of all things and was with Him in the beginning and was Him and whom God begot and called Him Son.

But I'm not going to give you a complete dissertation of what nearly everyone who calls themselves Christian believes. Even if I did, it would not convince you. There are 16,000+ posts on this thread alone that are proof enough of that. You can try to bait others into such wastes of time if you think it'll prove anything but it won't.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[popsthebuilder]

Not my belief. It's what the Bible says to do if they are being foolish. "Judge with righteous judgment."



And if they are being an idiot.



And if they are being stupid.



I think that you're trying to apply something that was taught as guidelines for life in God's Millennial Kingdom to how we are supposed to live today.

I love my enemies, enough to warn them that what they do is harmful, and that they should repent.

Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. - Romans 12:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:9&version=NKJV



I know you cannot provide it, because your position is not taught by Scripture.

Oh..... I see..... Another who thinks there are two gospels and that spiritual Israel isn't spread throughout the world; another who divides Jew and gentile.

Please learn about these things. Perhaps you could maybe put actual thought into your words as opposed to defending them indiscriminately. If you loved your enemy and actually looked to judge rightly then the precept about not making a show of what you, in your vanity, find to be lesser than your own in terms of cognitive capacity, would stop you from ever calling me, or another here, a fool, or the equivalent there of. If you loved your enemy and understood, then you would rebuke them in a manner that actually believed them and glorified GOD. righteous is not synonymous with haughty or arrogant, or proud, or want of defamation of another.

You cling to righteousness that you do not even understand, seemingly; especially that righteous judgement is from and of GOD alone; when you should be focusing on equity and mercy.

You are saying one thing and displaying another; neither of which do you seem to understand in your vanity.

Literal hypocrisy and willful ignorance (hint friend; willful ignorance is NOT ignorance; fear GOD.)

I hope GOD guides us both through Christ to what is good and right....

Let the two of us not speak to one another unless it is as if for the first time... please.

 

[steko]

I totally agree. I believe that this would be part of what "made in His image" includes.

Yep, me too!

 

[Clete]

We aren't to call any fool.

You're an idiot. Stop listening to the moron that stands behind the pulpit at your church.

We are to regard our enemy as our brother.

This is utter stupidity.

Go ahead, call the man with a knife at your child's throat, "brother". FOOL!

What good comes from calling a friend brother and casting away an enemy?

Psalms 139:19-22
Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.

For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.

Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.​

You are yet another who seems to have zero faith in the actual teachings of the Christ of GOD.

You are a complete waste of my time! Why do I even bother to do this?!

Regardless of if you care about what I feel or not; it is indeed, disheartening to me and should be to any other believer.

Good! You disgust me! You're a filthy heretic who's teachings will land people in an eternal Hell. I'm not your friend, I'm not your brother, I relish in the idea of disheartening my enemies.

Resting in Him who created all things, who was with God in the beginning and who was God, who became flesh and dwelt among us, who laid down His life for my sake and who took it up again!,
Clete

 

[God's Truth]

You say you simply read the Bible and believe so please show me where is says GOD the Son. Then show me where it says the gospel is that GOD killed itself as a payment for GOD or the law or justice which are all of GOD. Show that Christ being crucified means GOD being killed and not a human body that GOD dwelled in from conception. You act as if there was no GOD until GOD created the man Jesus.

If you think GOD isn't eternal then you are wasting more than just my time.

Jesus was God the Father with a body before the creation of anything.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I did more than not just attack it.

Indeed you did. Thank you again and even more so than I initially conveyed.

I thought you might of had some question.

Perhaps it is a relief that you do not.

And again;

Thank you for openly reading it, being interested in it, and attesting to the validity of it and the working of the Holy Spirit.

This is hard.......
.....peace sister and friend.....

Might we conclude our differences in GODs' time, by HIS Will and mercy, and arrive at a harmonious accord to our glorying of the GOD of all existence, to the profit of the congregation of Christ in the Spirit of GOD.

 

[steko]

Jesus didn't die Spiritually. That is ludicrous. No spirit dies.

Death is separation.
Physical death is separation of the body and spirit.
Christ's spiritual death was a separation of the Son from the Father.

 

[God's Truth]

Indeed you did. Thank you again and even more so than I initially conveyed.

I thought you might of had some question.

Perhaps it is a relief that you do not.

And again;

Thank you for openly reading it, being interested in it, and attesting to the validity of it and the working of the Holy Spirit.

This is hard.......
.....peace sister and friend.....

Might we conclude our differences in GODs' time, by HIS Will and mercy, and arrive at a harmonious accord to our glorying of the GOD of all existence, to the profit of the congregation of Christ in the Spirit of GOD.

I remember a while back you said something about not knowing if you were already saved. However, you show that you wanted to stop sinning, which is repenting of sins, and you called on Jesus to help you.

That is what the Bible says that we have to do.