The Trinity

[patrick jane]

Patrick, you're going to have to do more than just cite a couple of scriptures with no comment. John 1:1-14 has been discussed time and time again, and there is much evidence that "and the word was god" with a capital "G" is not the correct rendering, if we want to stay true to the rules for translating Greek into English. You should really research those rules. Greek has no indefinite article, so English translators have to add one where there is no definite article. (Greek does have definite articles.) A little complicated for you, dearie?

Not complicated at all, doofus. You belong to a cult.

 

[Lon]

OK, I'll sum up what I read above as "Once Saved Always Saved" ... which is incorrect, and dangerous. Yes, it is possible to fall away.

Spoiler

I think this parable is applicable to this point:

Mat 18:23-35
(23) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
(24) And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
(25) But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
(26) The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
(27) Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
(28) But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
(29) And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
(30) And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
(31) So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The lesson? Forgiveness for sins was granted, and then later revoked. We don't "own" God or have him over a barrel, locked into a phone contract that he can't break out of if we decide that we don't want him to rule over us any longer.

I appreciate this and used to think this too. There were way too many 'warning' scriptures, including "working out my salvation with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12 but read the reason 'why' (It started my understanding when I did): Philippians 2:12&13Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. -see also Ephesians 2:10

John 15:5, Colossians 1:17 Why should we fear? Because ONLY God can make us stand. Romans 14:4 2 Corinthians 5:17 "If"

1 John 2:19 made sense to me, finally, in this light. 2 Timothy 2:13 isn't God's prison, it is our salvation and freedom. John 8:36 Matthew 11:28-30

 

[glorydaz]

Patrick, you're going to have to do more than just cite a couple of scriptures with no comment. John 1:1-14 has been discussed time and time again, and there is much evidence that "and the word was god" with a capital "G" is not the correct rendering, if we want to stay true to the rules for translating Greek into English. You should really research those rules. Greek has no indefinite article, so English translators have to add one where there is no definite article. (Greek does have definite articles.) A little complicated for you, dearie?

Lord how the evil drips off that forked tongue.



The evil among us are certainly full of hate for our great God and Saviour...it will never cease to amaze me.

Whether God is capitalized or not, it still says the Word was God and not A GOD as your false translation has it. The more "explaining" you do, the deeper you dig yourself into the dark PIT.

 

[Rosenritter]

...using a Trinity lense and others explanations as opposed to what is plainly stated?

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I cite Clarke here because he has information of the original application of that Hebrew phrase. When we see an unfamiliar phrase, is it not preferable to find its historical usage, rather than inventing something based on whims?

But why do you say "Trinity lens?" Where does anything in those fact statements Clarke cites require a prior acceptance of "Trinity?" Did you forget that I don't identify myself as Trinitarian?

 

[popsthebuilder]

It seems you're having trouble with the concept of committing sin, but not being a sinner.

A sinner is someone who transgresses against divine law. It is in their nature to sin. "Sinner" describes their nature, it's who they are. Can they do something righteous? Of course. That doesn't change their nature of being a sinner, though.

A saint is someone who has been acknowledged as holy or virtuous or righteous. It is not in their nature to sin. "Saint" or "saved" describes their nature, it's who they are. Can they sin? Of course they can, but that doesn't change their nature from saint to sinner, it just means that they did something against their nature.

This is what Paul was saying in Galatians 2:17, that if he, and every Christian for that matter, is still a sinner (talking about their nature), then Christ is a minister of sin. Of course, Christ is not a minister of sin, He's a minister of righteousness.

“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! - Galatians 2:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:17&version=NKJV

Therefore, we are no longer sinners, but saints, saved eternally, and nothing can take that away from us.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:8-11&version=NKJV

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:31-39 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:31-39&version=NKJV

For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of our trouble which came to us in Asia: that we were burdened beyond measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life.Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead,who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,you also helping together in prayer for us, that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the gift granted to us through many. - 2 Corinthians 1:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians1:8-11&version=NKJV

Remember, our salvation is in Christ, not in our works. There is nothing we can do that is greater than His love for us if we have accepted him into our lives. If there was, then Christ would have died for nothing, and there would be no hope at all for us.

That is contrary to the simple reading of plain scripture within context.

If one claims to have never sinned they are a liar. And the truth is not in them.

Christ/ the Holy Spirit/ GOD and even the Son of man were/ are perfect. They cause whole utter complete change in the actual believer. If one sins they do not know GOD which is to say they are not a believer. Is this not scriptural?
Does that mean if an actual believer sins that they are condemned in said sin? No. Why? Because of the Way shown by GOD for the sake of every believer. What Way did GOD provide for his creation? Well... You tell me. According to the teachings and example of the Christ made known to all by His selfless sacrifice, it seems to have to with faithfulness towards GOD, through Him, reflected to His creation , repentance of sin, and perseverance in faith.

There is actually a particular verse that out right says the Christ paid specifically for sins past; and that is too the only simple understanding of the plain texts within context.



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[Lon]

It has been explained to you that I John 5:7 is not in early manuscripts, but was inserted much later by nefarious clergy and/or copyists. It doesn't bother you to keep perpetuating falsehood?

It is the ONLY standby for the Jehovah Witnesses. One has to buy into it. Until then? :nono: It may convince another Unit-arian. Will do nothing for a Trinitarian. It is plain and it is scripture to us.

 

[Rosenritter]

Define scripture. :nananana:

Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 KJV works for me.

 

[Lon]

You are contradicting Jesus, GD. He said that God = only the Father (John 17:3; John 20:17).


It seems that you are the one who is mixed up.

:nono: Do ANY of those say Jesus is not God??? :nono: You are 'assuming.' All JW's and Unit-arians assume Assuming is NO WAY to do theology :nono:

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is contrary to the simple reading of plain scripture within context.

If one claims to have never sinned they are a liar. And the truth is not in them.

Christ/ the Holy Spirit/ GOD and even the Son of man were/ are perfect. They cause whole utter complete change in the actual believer. If one sins they do not know GOD which is to say they are not a believer. Is this not scriptural?
Does that mean if an actual believer sins that they are condemned in said sin? No. Why? Because of the Way shown by GOD for the sake of every believer. What Way did GOD provide for his creation? Well... You tell me. Acfordingntonthe teachings and example pantie Christ made known to all by His selfless sacrifice, it seems to have to with faithfulness towards GOD, through Him, reflected to His creation , repentance of sin, perseverance in faith.

There is actually a particular verse that out right says the Christ paid specifically for sins past; and that is too the only simple understand of the plain texts within context.

No one here, to my knowledge, including myself, has said that they have never sinned.

However, I am saying that once someone is a saint, then they can no longer be called a sinner, even though they sin.

As for the rest of your post, I just quoted three passages (passages, not verses) that clearly state that "once saved always saved" (if that is indeed what you are talking about) is Biblical.

Read this again, paying close attention to verse 10.

Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead,who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us, - 2 Corinthians 1:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians1:9-10&version=NKJV

 

[Rosenritter]

I love how you pick and choose the seriousness of phrases, eailer you were saying that Jesus calling himself the "Son of God" was no different to calling himself "God", evidently you saw no difference in the gravity of someone calling themsleves Son of God and God, yet with "face-to-face" and "face-to-face as a man speaketh unto his friend" is somehow completely different, why? Simply because you say so. Your logic is not consistent.

The modifer "as a man speaketh unto his friend" further explains what is meant by "face-to-face", that isn't to say when God spoke "face-to-face" with the Israelite the same thing could be said.

More importantly you never answered my question, when it says Moses saw God face-to-face did Moses see Gods face?



I do know the difference. That does not change the point that face-to-face doesn't literally have to mean speaking to someone with a physical manifestation of them there as Deut 5:4, would you agree with this, that when scripture mentions face-to-face it doesn't have to be literal?

Please don't forget to answer my other question, namely, when it says Moses saw God face-to-face did Moses see Gods face?

Also, bearing in mind that Abraham supposedly saw God, offered him food and watched him eat, he no doubt believed God had a mouth and the ability to eat, did Abraham see Gods face? See Genesis 18:4,5

Now you are showing your true face. When you're willing to stand still and face me on the facts, then I'll answer your question. Oh ye of little face.

Spoiler

You're hardly using honest argument. "Face to face from the midst of fire" indicates a physical manifestation.... within FIRE. It is an exception to the traditional "face to face" that requires physical faces. I have difficulty taking you seriously when you resort to tactics of like that.

Also... please tell me that you're not trying to pick a fight over asking a question with a vague term that has more than one meaning, and then switching your answer to the other meaning of whatever is answered? Yes, Abraham was looking at God's face. He was manifested as a man and speaking with him, remember? Now, let's see if you do the less-than-honest meaning swap here.

 

[Rosenritter]

You've changed your argument, I made a reply to your statement of "Neither does he [Jesus] state that the Son of God is anything less than God". I stated this was bad reasoning since to say "Jesus never claim the being the Son of God was anything less that God" is to open a whole can of worms regarding the things never denied. NOW you've switched it to "Jesus never denied being God" which is completely different to the statement "Jesus never claim the being the Son of God was anything less that God".

No, no argument changed, but you seem to have trouble comprehending the argument in its entirety. If you were a blind man trying to argue with the elephant, you'd be saying it changed its form, too.

 

[Rosenritter]

An Angel by the decree of God can bless people and can save people, there is no such scripture that states that only God directly can bless or redeem people. You would firstly have to show me where the Bible applies such limitations on angels prior assuming your view it correct.

You ignored my point, so answer me this, according to Hebrews 1:1,2 when did God start speaking by means of Jesus Christ, was in the OT or in the 1CE when Jesus came to Earth?

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 And now at the end of these days he has spoken to us ]by means of his Son.."

Consider the following statement (actual names concealed to protect the innocent):

"You there, the idiot, the moron, stop what you are doing and listen to what is being said!"

Now, who in their right mind would think that was meant to address three different people?

Genesis 48:15-16 KJV
(15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
(16) The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Again,

God,
before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk,
the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil,

How many people? Three people, you say? Two people? Four, or six? Anything but One? Oh, the depths to which you will stoop to fight against plain meaning...

 

[Rosenritter]

The image includes all three parts. Other animals do not have a soul, and therefore are not made in the image of God. It's not the Bonjovi song where "two out of three ain't bad."

Animals don't merely have a soul. They are souls. Same as people in that regard.

Numbers 31:28 KJV
(28) And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the *****, and of the sheep:

See? Persons, cattle, *****, and sheep, all of these are souls. That's the scriptural application of the word.

As far as Angels are concerned, you are inferring that the Bible implies they are made in the image of God. There is no scripture that says outright that they are. Animals also make choices, so that is a weak argument. It is all that we are that is in the image of God, not just a part. Christ is the express image of God, we are a dim image of God, angels and animals do not have a scriptural connection to the Image of God.

Animals do make choices, but their choices are extremely limited in scope. I'd be willing to accept your assumption that animals are not made in the image of God for the sake of argument.

However, the angelic host of heaven was present when God had created the world, and its animals, and then spoke, saying, "Let us make man in our image."

Job 38:4-7 KJV
(4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
(5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
(6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
(7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

God, having an image, and angels, being created in a form after that image, does make a plural factor that God, the LORD of hosts, addresses when he says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26). Were the angels present (and Job tells us they were) then they are present when God speaks to them, implying that they too bear the image of God.

Isaiah 44:24 KJV
(24) Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

A singular God, but can speak to the inclusive plural (us and our) once you add the hosts of heaven. "Our image" implies a shared image. Thus, I think it is a fairly safe deduction that angels are also in the image of God.

 

[popsthebuilder]

One more thing:

Believer and sinner are mutually exclusive. You cannot be both simultaneously, and once you switch from sinner to believer, you can never go back to being a sinner.

So are you saying you don't sin, or that you were never a true believer, or that belief is ineffective towards the change of one's own spirit?

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[popsthebuilder]

See my above comment

I did.

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[popsthebuilder]

How about we use the pronouns the Bible uses to describe God, instead of your own ideas about what He is.

My own ideas? So you really thing GOD is a male?

Sounds Sumerian

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[popsthebuilder]

See my above comment.

I must have missed it.

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[Rosenritter]

You apparently haven't read any of Paul's works...

Did Paul say that we have God over a barrel? Or contradict the message of Jesus? Nay, Paul also understood that one that put their hand to the plough, and looked back, was not fit for the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 KJV
(26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[Rosenritter]

You people are being silly. Does someone have to spoon-feed you with simple words to help you to see what is being explained? A god was understood in the first century to mean a powerful, important, high official....such as judges, governors, kings, and even the angels (and Satan; 2Corinthians 4:4). Jesus was certainly powerful and important, and God's appointed future King. How can you not get that through your head?

It's reasons like that why the scripture tells us that Jesus is the Creator of all things. There may be many "gods" but there is only one Creator God.

 

[Rosenritter]

I think NWL has been trying to point out that Jesus REFUTED their charge that he claimed to be God. He did no such thing as claim to be God. He reminded them that even human JUDGES were thought of as "gods," so why were they seeking to stone him when he claimed to be the Son of God? Did you miss THAT part? He never claimed to be what they tried to say he did. They were seeking to pin something on him that would get him in trouble, so they ACCUSED him of claiming to be God.

Hey, just because the Jews said it, did that make it true? They said he claimed to be God....was that really true? No. If it was true, just because they said it, then were they correct when they accused Jesus of getting his power from the Devil? "In answer the Jews said to him: 'Do we not rightly say, you are a Samaritan and have a demon?'" (John 8:48)If we follow your line of reasoning, then that must be true also! The Jews said a lot of things about him that were not true.

Jesus didn't refute their charge that he made himself God. I understand that NWL is trying to make the opposite argument, but in doing so he is required to isolate the passage from its cited Psalm and gospel context, as if it were spoken in a vacuum, and then act as if the Jews ignored what he said, rather than reacting to it.