Rosenritter
New member
It never occurred to you that if God has seven spirits before his throne in this image, that it's likely speaking of seven angels? ... that was a looooooo...
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The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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It never occurred to you that if God has seven spirits before his throne in this image, that it's likely speaking of seven angels? ... that was a looooooo...
NUTS!
:kookoo:
popsthebuilder
New member
Isaiah: 44. 6. Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 8. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. 10. Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? 13. The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house. 14. He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. 15. Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. 17. And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. 18. They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. 19. And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? 20. He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand? 22. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. 23. Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. 24. Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25. That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 28. That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah: 45. 1. Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 11. Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 14. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. 15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
(do the following verses seem to verify that the Spirit of GOD is GOD, and that man in any form, is not? )
peace
Isaiah: 45. 1. Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 11. Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 14. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. 15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
(do the following verses seem to verify that the Spirit of GOD is GOD, and that man in any form, is not? )
peace
God's Truth
New member
That is right, they are referring to Jesus. Even when Jesus walked the earth he was called the Christ.
Thanks for the info.
God's Truth
New member
The scriptures plainly say he is THE Spirit, not just a spirit.
As for having seven spirits, it does not take away from the fact that Jesus is the Spirit and he is the one and only divine Spirit, meaning he is the same exact Spirit as God the Father.
I gave scriptures that plainly say there is one Spirit, yet you want to find scripture that nullifies the scripture I gave. That is not going to happen. You cannot nullify scripture with scripture.
It is said that Jesus has eyes that are as blazing fire; and you need to show me where angles have eyes of flames of fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
Revelation 1:14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
"The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: ‘I know your deeds..."--Revelation 2:18-19
Who is that fire in Jesus' eyes?
God the Father is inside Jesus.
Jesus is God the Father in a physical body. Jesus is not another angel. He is the Spirit, not one of many spirits.
Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."
Jesus is THAT God the Father with a body who came to earth as a Man.
God's Truth
New member
Maybe he can tell you what a nut you are and then you too can act like it is good?
Maybe.
keypurr
Well-known member
NRSB
Col 1:13 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Col 1:16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers--all things have been created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Do you believe the book of Hebrews friend?
Heb 1:1 Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.
Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
Heb 1:10 And, "In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing;
Heb 1:12 like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end."
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Heb 1:14 Are not all angels spirits in the divine service, sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
KJV
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Why would the Son need a body prepared for him?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
All things were made by him.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
What was the WORD before it became flesh?
KJV
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Who should I listen to? You or scripture?
God made all through his son, they are both as creators. The son had the fullness of his Father, and the Father was pleased. WHY?
Jesus did not come down from heaven, the logos did, and the logos is NOT Jesus. Think about that. The logos spoke through the body God prepared for him.
Time to wake up to what could be, not what you have been taught to believe.
Rosenritter
New member
Why the wall of text? You didn't address the question. In scripture God says that he created the heavens and the earth alone, and he uses this for identification of the LORD God. That rules out your "contracted out the work to a Spirit Son" theory.
Citing a bunch of scripture that does nothing to establish your point (at not saying what your point is at that) doesn't help you either. I do see one question, a misguided question at that:
First, start with the scripture and let the context speak for itself. It's not about your weird theory.
Hebrews 10:2-5 KJV
(2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
(3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
(4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
(5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
His body is prepared for a sacrifice, in place of the bodies of bulls and goats.
Ezekiel 43:25 KJV
(25) Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
The body of Jesus was prepared for this offering. God did not prepare a bull or a goat, he prepared the body of the Lamb. Read the context!
RealityJerk
New member
It’s fully supported by scripture. The angels are “Elohim” / gods:
Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (elohim/gods), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
In the Hebrew, the word translated “angels” in Psalms 8:5, is “elohim”or gods. The word Elohim in Hebrew, can mean several things, however, it generally denotes authority and power. YHWH, is the GOD/POWER, of all gods and powers. He is the ultimate, absolute source, of everything and everyone. Nonetheless, the immortal angels, are powerful spirits. We were created, lower than the angels / Elohim. Even your apostle Paul, interprets Psalms 8:5, as referring to angels/Elohim:
Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
This is the Strongs Hebrew definition of Elohim/elohim:
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Total KJV occurrences: 2601
This is the BDB (Brown Driver Briggs) Hebrew definition of Elohim/elohim:
'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech: noun masculine plural
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: plural of H433
In the book of Job we read:
Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job_2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
The term there, “sons of God”, is “Bnai’Elohim”. It doesn’t imply that they are “children” of God, but rather, of the category of elohim/gods. Let’s look at the Strongs Hebrew definition of the word “Bnai/Sons”:
bane
From H1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like H1, H251, etc.):
Notice, that the word “benai/bane”, denotes, a nation, a quality or condition. The Brown Driver Briggs definition states:
bên
BDB Definition:
1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (plural - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (plural)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for unrighteous men] or sons of God [for angels])
1g) people (of a nation) (plural)
1h) of lifeless things, i.e. sparks, stars, arrows (figuratively)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1129
Do you see it? Ben/Benai/Bane can mean “characterization”, those who are members of a particular order or class. Those that are within a certain category or condition. So for example, we have the sons of the prophets (those who are members of the order/class/category/condition of the prophets. ):
1Ki_20:35 And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him.
2Ki_2:3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
2Ki_2:5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
2Ki_2:7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
2Ki_2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
2Ki_4:1 Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen.
2Ki_4:38 And Elisha came again to Gilgal: and there was a dearth in the land; and the sons of the prophets were sitting before him: and he said unto his servant, Set on the great pot, and seethe pottage for the sons of the prophets.
2Ki_5:22 And he said, All is well. My master hath sent me, saying, Behold, even now there be come to me from mount Ephraim two young men of the sons of the prophets: give them, I pray thee, a talent of silver, and two changes of garments.
Ben/Benai/Bane of the Prophets – Sons of the Prophets. The holy angels, who serve YHWH, are of the angelic order of elohim/gods. Unlike Satan, who appeared before YHWH in heaven, along with the Benai’elohim. The holy order of angels. The hosts/armies of YHWH, are “elohim” / gods / divinities / immortal powers. The fallen angels, lost their divine nature, becoming demons. Fallen ones. The judges of Israel, are “elohim”, because they function as and represent, YHWH’s justice and authority.
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges (elohim); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exo 22:8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (elohim), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.
1Sa 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge (elohim) shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.
YHWH ELOHIM, is judging through the judges/elohim of Israel:
2Ch_19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
Jdg_2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies …..
Deu_16:18 Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.
YHWH Elohim, is with the judges of Israel, hence they are elohim. They represent YHWH’s justice and authority. Here we see the Hebraic principle of agency/Shaliach. The agent is identified with, synonymous with, the one who sent him. The “medium”, the conduit, is identified with, the one who is working through him. An embassy, with all of its staff, is considered one and the same, with the country they represent. The “benai’elohim”, are of the order of immortal divinities, because they represent the almighty, immortal DVINITY/YHWH. They are of the order of “hosts” / armies, of YHWH. So they are elohim. They are to be respected, honored.
I’m going to give you a few more examples of this biblical principle of “agency” / Shaliach:
Exo 4:13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
Exo 4:14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
Exo 4:15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
Exo 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him God (Elohim).
Exo 4:17 And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.
Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee ELOHIM to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
In the Hebrew, YHWH says, “You are God to him (Aaron)”, “ You are Elohim to Pharaoh”. Moses is God to Aaron and pharaoh. Why? Is Moses literally GOD? Elohim? No. He is GOD to Aaron and Pharaoh, because he is representing God to Aaron and Pharaoh. The agent and the principle (the one who sent him), become as one. Moses represents the authority and power of GOD, to both Aaron and pharaoh, so YHWH had no problem, no issue, with identifying Moses, as Himself. Moses has power of attorney. Do prophets have prophets? Only God has prophets, right? Well, Aaron becomes the prophet, the mouthpiece, of Moses.
It’s a chain of command. A hierarchy. That’s how YHWH works, through His hosts, his armies, his agents / angels, prophets….etc. Aaron, wasn’t just the mouthpiece of Moses, but likewise, his hands. He was the one holding the rod, and performing the miracles. The divine power, was transmitted to him, from YHWH, through Moses.
Exo_4:20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ***, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.
It’s the rod of God that is the instrument through which YHWH’s power performs “signs” / miracles, in Moses’ hand:
Exo 4:17 And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand (in Moses’ hand), wherewith thou shalt do signs.
But this rod is not just in Moses’ hand, it is in Aaron’s hand, and it is identified as Aaron’s rod:
Exo_7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
Exo_7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Exo_7:19 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt………..
Exo_7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters….
Exo_8:5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
Exo_8:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
Exo_8:17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
The hand of Moses, is the hand of Aaron. Aaron is the mouthpiece and hand of Moses. The rod of God, is the rod of Moses, that is likewise the rod of Aaron.
Examine this:
Exo 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.
It’s God’s hand that performed the miracles.
Exo 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them
Above we read, that it is YHWH’s hand that was stretched out, performing miracles.
We read earlier that it was Aaron’s hand that was stretched out over the water. Remember? The Israelites were freed from Egypt, by God’s hand, Moses hand and Aaron’s hand:
Psa 77:20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.
Isa_63:12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
The right hand of Moses, is Aaron. He is the “right hand”. God’s hand, through Moses, through Aaron, led the children of Israel out of Egypt. We’re missing one piece in the puzzle:
Act_7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
It was God’s hand, that freed the Israelites from Egypt. It was also the angel’s hand. YHWH’s hand, The Angel’s hand, Moses’ hand, Moses right hand/Aaron’s hand. That’s a lot of hands huh? It’s really just one hand, the hand of God. THE HAND OF YHWH. The Power of YHWH, being transmitted through His agents.
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. ….
Psa 78:52 But made his own people to go forth like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.
Psa 78:53 And he led them on safely, so that they feared not: but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.
YHWH’S hand, the angel’s hand, Moses’ hand , Aarons hand. ONE HAND. They are all as one. They’re working in tandem, together, united in purpose and action.
This post would be to long, if I gave you all of the examples of divine agency, in the Hebrew bible. There are more.
This passage is actually saying the very opposite of what you’re asserting. Read that verse in context. The “elohim”/gods there, are the fallen angels, that are worshiped by the nations, in the form of idols. The demonic forces, that rule over the nations, receive worship, through idolatry. These fallen angels, are not the gods that created this universe, and EVEN THEY, will perish. Why say “Even they” ? Isn’t that redundant, if they’re expected to perish? That “EVEN THEY”, insinuates, strongly suggests, that typically, these “elohim”, don’t perish. They’re immortal. EVEN THEY, will perish. These aren't mere idols, but the demons behind them.
Let’s read Jeremiah 10, in context:
Jer 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Here we are being told, in the first chapter, that God is referring to the idolatry of the heathen, who worship the stars, the signs of heaven. Let’s continue:
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
The idolatry of the heaven…Continue:
Jer 10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
Jer 10:9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.
Idolatry….Continue:
Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Here he is saying, that these demonic, fallen angels, did not create this world, and they will perish from God’s creation. It doesn’t imply that God’s creative power, wasn’t bestowed upon His holy angels, to create this earth and all life in it. The reason, we were taken captive by the fallen angels, the demonic forces of the rebel spirit that rebelled against God in heaven, is because we were created by God, through His holy angels.
Let’s continue:
Jer 10:14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
Jer 10:15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.
Jer 10:24 O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.
Jer 10:25 Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.
Again, a reference to idolatry. The idolatry of the heathen. These gods that will perish, lost their divine nature, when they rebelled against God, and now they will perish. These are not the angels / gods / elohim, that created this world. To suggest that YHWH will kill His holy angels, allowing them to perish, is preposterous.
“Everybody else” didn’t create the universe. It was YHWH, working through His angels (His holy angels, are not “Everybody else”). When YHWH, says that he alone is the creator, that means that he is the ultimate source of creation. It doesn’t mean that, he didn’t use His holy angels / elohim to create. For example:
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Beside the Lord, there is NO SAVIOR. He alone is savior, right? No. That’s not what this is saying. You’re not interpreting it correctly. This means, that he is the ultimate, absolute source of salvation. Without God, there is no salvation. God Himself, sends saviors:
Jdg 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a savior, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.
Neh_9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
These saviors are the judges/elohim of Israel. They are saviors, sent by God Himself to save. Yet, God is still the only true savior. No one saves like God. He is a unique savior, because He is the very source of salvation. All of the other “saviors”, receive their power to save, from YHWH. There are many saviors, but only one almighty, SAVIOR. You get it? Look:
Oba_1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
YHWH sends saviors. God saves through his angels, messengers, prophets, judges….etc. YHWH as savior, is still unique, in being the source of salvation. In this sense, He is the only savior. In another sense, there are other saviors, that he sends. This same truth, can be applied to creation. God is the only creator, in the sense that he is the absolute source of creation. Nonetheless, He creates through His angels. His creative power, His divine hand, is transmitted to the angels.
The angels are the eyes, hands, arms of YHWH, the agents through which He manifests His presence and power.
RealityJerk
New member
Saying that Jesus is the spirit of YHWH, and essentially YHWH, doesn't make it so. Jesus' spirit and YHWH's spirit, are united in purpose and action. YHWH's presence and power, works through Jesus, speaks through Jesus, but that doesn't make Jesus YHWH. YHWH has seven spirits, or angels, that represent Him and are explicitly identified as the "spirits of God". Following your line of reasoning, since these spirits, are more explicitly described as "The spirits of God", than even the spirit of Jesus, which is never explicitly identified as such, then you must believe YHWH is comprised of seven spirits or angels. You would also have to believe that Elijah is God, because the spirit of Elijah is closely identified with the spirit of God, in the passages I presented in my last post to you.
Citing Paul, doesn't prove anything. He's not one of the 12 apostles, hence has no authority to determine doctrine for us. Only Jesus and His twelve apostles can do that.
RealityJerk
New member
What you're saying is quite interesting and profound, but unfortunately most people here don't have the cerebral capacity to appreciate what you're saying. I'm beginning to get the impression, that everything we're telling them, is flying right over their skulls. Perhaps we're wasting our time here?
Romans 16:25 KJV -
No, he was certainly not one of the twelve. But he was an apostle.
Luke's account of Paul's conversion shows that he is, in fact, an apostle, chosen by God.
Or what, are you going to reject what Luke said too?
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priestand asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying.And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. - Acts 9:1-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts9:1-19&version=NKJV
You may want to read this:
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/was-paul-really-an-apostle.html
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The twelve apostles will rule on twelve thrones.
Paul, the "thirteenth" apostle, will not rule on a throne, because Christ is the head of the body of Christ, and Paul, like you and I, are members.
He did have authority to determine doctrine, which authority was recognized by the twelve.
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. - Galatians 2:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:1-10&version=NKJV
The fact that Peter calls Paul's writing scripture automatically gives him authority.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. - 2 Peter 3:14-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:14-18&version=NKJV
Paul's authority came directly from Christ.
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), - Galatians 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:1&version=NKJV
Have you not read any of Paul's writings in the New Testament? Rejecting Paul means that you pretty much have to throw out most of if not all of the entire New Testament. And you don't get to do that.
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Revelation 22:18-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation22:18-19&version=NKJV
Two things:
First,
Exodus 4:16 does not call Moses God.
It's saying that Moses will be as God to Pharoah. It's a simile.
Second,
Isaiah 43:11 literally says:
"I am the LORD and beside me there is no savior." Why are you trying to make it say something that it doesn't say?
It says "beside Me," meaning, on the same level as Himself. What level is that? The Savior of the world.
RealityJerk
New member
Jesus warned us all about Paul. He is a test for Israel. If you want to follow Saul, the enemy of David, go right ahead. Eat the poisonous fruit from his true of "special revelation" and "wisdom" and you won't be counted as a disciple of Messiah. You will be called,least, little, in the Kingdom of God, provided you even inherit the Kingdom. YHWH doesn't lie or contradict Himself. We must all keep His commandments, if we are truly His people.
2 Peter is a forgery. You should know that.
Scripture please.
He wasn't even sent to Israel. He was sent to minister to the world.
Wrong Saul. Please focus. We're talking about Saul of Tarsus, not Saul the son of Kish. (Though there is a parallel to be made with the two Sauls.)
So instead of responding to the scriptures I provided, showing you that your assertions are wrong, you basically give no argument at all.
Right.
AMEN!
That assertion is based on a rejection of scripture, and is therefore inherently wrong.
Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” - Romans 3:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:4&version=NKJV
God's Truth
New member
I quoted John too for you.
You saying that Jesus isn't God doesn't make it so.
There is much proof in the Bible that Jesus is God.
Tell me, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you?
RealityJerk
New member
Two things:
First,
Exodus 4:16 does not call Moses God.
It's saying that Moses will be as God to Pharoah. It's a simile.
Second,
Isaiah 43:11 literally says:
"I am the LORD and beside me there is no savior." Why are you trying to make it say something that it doesn't say?
It says "beside Me," meaning, on the same level as Himself. What level is that? The Savior of the world.
I know it's a simile. You actually believe, that I'm saying Moses is literally Elohim? He is representing Elohim as a simile of Elohim. I don't believe Moses is ontologically, in essence, Elohim. The way the Hebrew is worded, it can mean,literally Elohim or a simile, based on the context. Even Robert Bowman, a staunch Evangelical Christian scholar admits this:
"The Hebrew states, “and he shall be to/for you as mouth, and you shall be to/for him as God [le elohim].” The Hebrew word translated “as” is the particle le (pronounced “luh”). Although the particle could simply mark the words “mouth” and “God” as direct objects of the repeated verb “shall be,” in context it may be taken as expressing comparisons. " Source: http://bib.irr.org/was-moses-god-exodus-416-and-71
So yes, I know that Moses is not literally Elohim and that Aaron is not his literal, actual mouth. Nonetheless, this is quite provocative isn't it? Let's be honest. This type of "similitude" language, should make us think twice, before we jump to conclusions about Jesus being literally YHWH, or an Angel being actually, YHWH. The Hebrew bible, uses similitude, and Christian Trinitarians, love those ambigious passages, where it seems an Angel is being identified as YHWH. They jump, "Hey look! That angel is literally YHWH!"..No, settle down. This type of language, of divine similitude, simply denotes divine agency. God working through His agents.
“I have set thee in God’s stead to Pharaoh” (JPS 1917); “I place you in the role of God to Pharaoh” (TNK);
Those two above verses, are from the Jewish translation of the Hebrew bible. I'd say that is a perfect translation of this passage.
As far as what you're saying about YHWH being the only savior. Yes, in the true sense, He is the True Savior. He is the source of salvation. He is unique in that respect. However, he also sends saviors, as I very pointedly, clearly demonstrated, by citing those passages that explicitly state that. YHWH sends saviors. You can tap dance around that all you want, but it's quite clear and unambiguous.
God is the only creator, in the sense that, He is the source of creation. God is the only true God, because He is the ultimate, absolute source of divinity. He grants, through His grace, His divine nature, to His creatures. They become divine, through grace. We are adopted into YHWH's nature, His family, His Kingdom. YHWH, is the non-contingent, original source of everything and everyone. He is TRUE DEITY. The "true God", as Jesus Himself clearly stated, in John ch17, when He prays to His Heavenly Father.
There is only one TRUE GOD. That's doesn't imply that there aren't other divinities, gods, immortals. The difference again, I repeat, is that The True God, YHWH, is the source and origin, of His divine nature and life. He is the main proprietor and original author, of life. So all other beings, entities, regardless of how powerful, majestic, immortal they might be, they are contingent, dependent realities. All of the "gods" / little "g", receive their "godhood" from GOD/YHWH.