The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

There are many gods and saviors in the bible. What the above passages imply, is that YHWH is the ultimate source of divinity and salvation. It doesn't mean, that there aren't other gods or saviors.

God created the universe, through His angels. The Angels, used the power of God, to create this world. That divine power and authority was delligated, from YHWH to His Son, then to the angels. The angels are gods, under the authority of YHWH.

Not only is that unsupported by scripture, but it's strongly implied against. If the angels are gods, and if God used the gods to create this world, then it is properly said that all the gods created the heavens and the earth.

Jeremiah 10:11 KJV
(11) Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

More ever, if the gods created the heavens and the earth, why would the LORD say that he created the heavens and earth alone, by himself? And how could it be a unique title (anything other than redundant) to say that he maketh all things, if really everybody else made all things?

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

So let's go over this again. Based on no evidence (that I can see) you're saying that the angels created the heavens and the earth (under God's blanket authority) but the scripture says God created the heavens and the earth, that he created them alone, and that he will destroy those gods that did not create the heavens and the earth.

You see, the bible is like a garden. And in this garden, there are two trees. One tree bears the fruit of life, another yields poisonous fruit. In the holy garden, there are two trees, one from which comes life, and the other death. So, if you follow Paul/Saul (The enemy of David/Messiah), you will be cast out from Messiah's kingdom, as one of the lawless ones. Notice, how practically, all of your theology, originates with Paul. Most of your proof-texts, come from this man, who is not one of Messiah's twelve apostles. Paulianity, rather than the faith of Israel. That's essentially what you're following. Paulianity.

I seem to recall hearing another Unitarian who said that he believed the entire New Testament, except for anything written by Paul. Oh, he added, and not anything written by John. And Peter he also added, you couldn't trust Peter at all because he endorsed the writings of Paul, because he said Paul was a good guy, and because Peter called Paul's writings scripture.

2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
(15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
(16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I guess you'd have to also throw out the book of Acts (which also endorses Paul) in addition to John, Peter, and Paul. So... is there actually any of the Bible left that you will say you believe? Maybe Matthew Mark and Luke and the epistle of James? Marcion may have been said to have edited the scriptures with a penknife, but it seems that you're going to need a machete.

Maybe you should write your own books to fill in the gaps.

 

[marhig]

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

You can't get out of it. You have to believe it.

Believe what? That the Lord is Spirit?

The father and Christ enter into our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said this in John 14 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and*WE will come unto him and make OUR abode with him" WE and OUR Gt there's father and son the Son isn't the father and they aren't the Spirit they come through the Spirit

How do you get around all those verses that I quoted? There's loads of them! And they clearly show that Jesus is not the father, and that the father is his God!

 

[marhig]

Paul Paul Paul Paul...Citing Paul Paul...Paulianity.

Don't you believe the apostle Paul?

 

[keypurr]

If Jesus is a man that was merely possessed by a spirit called Logos, and not actually a spirit himself, then who is talking in John's vision in Revelation? He calls himself JESUS.

Revelation 22:12-16 KJV
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

If your theory of a separate Logos non-Jesus were correct, we'd expect for it to make some sort of showing. Except there's no such separate thing. Jesus was not possessed by a spirit, and the only one that matters now is he who is properly called Jesus.

A Jesus, I might add, that calls himself "Alpha and Omega" and "the first and the last." He who is coming is that first and the last, who calls himself Jesus.

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Will you please stop repeating that "spirit Logos possessed Jesus" nonsense? I don't think I've heard you say much anything else in my year on these boards. Is that really what you want to stand for?

Do you know what a VISION is?

You will never understand John 1:1. The Universe was not laid out by a man friend, God used his spirit Son to do that.


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[God's Truth]

Believe what? That the Lord is Spirit?

Believe the scriptures that say the Lord is the Spirit.
I notice you want to change it up though and say the Lord is Spirit.
The Lord is Spirit but the scriptures say the Lord is the Spirit.
Could you tell me why you changed it?

The father and Christ enter into our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Give scripture for that. What do you mean the Father and Christ enter by the power of the Holy Spirit? Not by the power of God? Not by the power of Jesus?

Jesus said this in John 14 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and*WE will come unto him and make OUR abode with him" WE and OUR Gt there's father and son the Son isn't the father and they aren't the Spirit they come through the Spirit

There is a Father and a Son and they are the same one and only Spirit.
That scripture proves what I say.
The Bible says that the Father is Spirit and Jesus is the Spirit, and there is only one Spirit. So tell me how we are given one Spirit but all three different Spirits live in the saved.

How do you get around all those verses that I quoted? There's loads of them! And they clearly show that Jesus is not the father, and that the father is his God!

Let's see what you come up when you answer the questions I asked you in this post.

 

[Rosenritter]

Do you know what a VISION is?

You will never understand John 1:1. The Universe was not laid out by a man friend, God used his spirit Son to do that.


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So you're suggesting that Revelation is a vision, and when Jesus speaks in the vision, he's either lying or part of a dishonest illusion?

If you're not going to address the content, and if you're simply going to keep repeating the same thing I've heard you say for the past year, is there a reason I should read any longer?

 

[Bright Raven]

I gave scriptures that plainly say the Lord is the Spirit.

But He is not the Holy Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

But He is not the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures say He is.

There is only one divine Spirit.

 

[Bright Raven]

The scriptures say He is.

There is only one divine Spirit.

:kookoo:

 

[God's Truth]

:kookoo:

You are doing that to the truth.

I said, "The scriptures say He is". Here is the scripture: 2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

I said, "There is only one divine Spirit: Here is the scripture: Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;


So why are you saying cuck coo to that?

 

[Bright Raven]

You are doing that to the truth.

I said, "The scriptures say He is". Here is the scripture: 2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

I said, "There is only one divine Spirit: Here is the scripture: Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;


So why are you saying cuck coo to that?

nope, you're a nut case.

 

[lifeisgood]

We have been talking about Jesus, the Rider with the sword.

OK

Notice that you ignore the scriptures that plainly, clearly say the Lord is the Spirit.

Why do you refuse and not believe?

“God is spirit,” Jesus declared, “and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).

Jesus DID NOT say that God is 'a' spirit. That is something you added to what Jesus said.
There is NO definite article in the Greek text before the word spirit, emphasizing the quality of the word.

The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God is spirit!

 

[keypurr]

So you're suggesting that Revelation is a vision, and when Jesus speaks in the vision, he's either lying or part of a dishonest illusion?

If you're not going to address the content, and if you're simply going to keep repeating the same thing I've heard you say for the past year, is there a reason I should read any longer?

It is hard to find the words to express my thoughts to a person who will not understand them. Revelations has a lot of visions. Christ teaches using visions. All through the OT visions were used.

Christ does not lie friend, but mans understanding of his words sometime do.


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[God's Truth]

nope, you're a nut case.

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

All you did is prove how much more I mean to God.

 

[God's Truth]

OK



“God is spirit,” Jesus declared, “and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).

Jesus DID NOT say that God is 'a' spirit. That is something you added to what Jesus said.
There is NO definite article in the Greek text before the word spirit, emphasizing the quality of the word.

The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God is spirit!

I have no idea about the confusion that you speak.

It is clear.

God the Father is Spirit.

Jesus the Lord is the Spirit.

 

[lifeisgood]

All you did is prove how much more I mean to God.

Self-conceited much?
For God is no respecter of persons (Romans 2:11)

 

[keypurr]

Rosenritter consider the verses that tell you that the Son at the creation, logos, became flesh. He was not created flesh, he was created as the express image of his creator. God is not a man, he is a spirit. His son is also a spirit. God sent this son to dwell in a human form. Jesus is that flesh body prepared for him. The spirit son and the flesh son came together when the dove landed on Jesus. The logos spoke through Jesus.

Wild thoughts? Yep they are strange indeed, but they are true.


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[lifeisgood]

I have no idea about the confusion that you speak.

All you have to do is read your own responses reading them as if it is someone else instead of you.

It is clear.

No YOU ARE NOT clear.

God the Father is Spirit.

Have you noticed how you do NOT say that God the Father IS THE Spirit.

Jesus the Lord is the Spirit.

Notice how you ADDED 'the Spirit' for Jesus?

 

[lifeisgood]

Christ does not lie friend, but mans understanding of his words sometime do.

Starting with that express image that is looking back at you in the mirror. :chuckle:

 

[Rosenritter]

Rosenritter consider the verses that tell you that the Son at the creation, logos, became flesh. He was not created flesh, he was created as the express image of his creator. God is not a man, he is a spirit. His son is also a spirit. God sent this son to dwell in a human form. Jesus is that flesh body prepared for him. The spirit son and the flesh son came together when the dove landed on Jesus. The logos spoke through Jesus.

Wild thoughts? Yep they are strange indeed, but they are true.

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The boldfaced above is where that chain of reasoning went wrong. We are told that there was nothing created that he did not create. He's not a creation, he's the Creator.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity&p=5084783&viewfull=1#post5084783

You never did respond with an answer there. If there was a "Spirit Son" that possessed the man Jesus, then how come it's Jesus talking to us in the vision of Revelation, using the very names of God for himself? Where did this Spirit Son go? Irrelevant, apparently, which is exactly what we would expect for a made up theory like that anyway. It seems the only God that matters now calls himself Jesus, and He tells us that He is the one who died, and lives, and is alive forevermore.