NWL
Active member
Good, thank you for actually answering the question. As you said "as phrased it James seemed like a different person", now the question is how did I phrase it? Exactly the same way Revelation phrases it!
John...May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood—
Rosenritter may you have blessings from Paul and from the people who live in his house and from James the worlds strongest man, the Olympic athelite, the winner of the gold, he James made us enter into the trials for the worlds strongest man so that we could be henchmen to his Father and hero"
You read my analogy and were able to work out that James was not Paul, yet you claimed Jesus in Rev 1:4,5 was the same person as "the one coming" even though the grammar is exactly the same. For some reason you apply what is said differently in Rev 1:4-6 when compared to my paralleled analogy.
This is exactly what I meant when I said you didn't understand grammar, btw that isn't an insult its an observation, there's a difference in highlighting a persons fault and insulting someone to try and hurt them or their argument, I'm not trash talking.
Of course not, there is one coming, the Father, who comes by means of his son, thus scripture makes mention on Jesus coming too. I've already shown you how the bible language often talks regarding a singular person even though two persons are in fact involved. As we know Jesus judges the world, but in fact it is the Father who is ultimate judges since it is him who judges men through or by means of his son, compare Acts 17:31 with John 5:22. Thus since Jesus does all things for the Father and it is Jehovah who comes according to Isaiah 40:10 with Jesus being the person who the Father acts through, Jesus is also spoken of as coming.
Then this weakens your argument even more since no bible writer constructs sentences like that! You saying in effect that the writer said "blessing from Jesus, and from the seven spirits before his [Jesus] throne, AND from Jesus". Give me an example where any bible writer has a sentence in such a word order. You're grasping at straws.
How is this trash talk???? It's an observation not an insult.
Spoiler
My argument is not every time "I" is used the speaker changes, I've previously stated at times when "I" is used with with a persons name after the use of "I" does it indicate a change of speaker. In Rev 22 for example this only takes place twice, once in v8 and then in v16.
The verse you quoted above clearly show Jesus separate from God. I also showed you previously how Jesus as the lamb was the one who takes the scroll from the one who is was and is coming in Rev 1:8, this is clear and undeniable proof that he is not the one mentioned in Rev 1:8. Compare Read Rev 4:8-5:7.
I deny that Jesus is the one identified as the "the One who is and who was and who is coming" as he is clearly spoken of as separate from this one in Rev 1:5 and Rev 4:8-5:7. As of yet you've shown no credible evidence to suggest that he is that one. Your claim of the "restatement" is not scriptural sound nor is it grammatically sound.
Spoiler
The Father does things through Jesus, thus both are spoken of doing a action, yet ulitamtly there is only one action initiator. God is judge but entrusted all judging to the son, this doesn't mean that God doesn't judge it just means that God judges through Jesus Christ. As you showed with John 5:22, the Father doesn't judge anyone, this is speaking of judging directly however, God doesn't judge anyone directly since he entrusted all the judging to the son. Scripture cleary mentions that God -with the God separate from Jesus in the verse- judging through or by means of Jesus.
(Acts 17:30, 31) "..God.. Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead..”
Thus the Father judges and so too does the Son. The Father does not directly judge anyone since he entrusted all the judging to the son. There are two judges, Jesus and the Father, but only one ultimate judge, the Father.
We must not forget context and how the bible uses language at times. According to your bible when looking at Hebrews 1:1,2, which has God the father identified since it shows him acting by/through his son, who is the initiator according to the verse God or the Son?
"..God.. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.." (Hebrews 1:1,2)
You keep imposing your own set of rules an regulations on scripture that are simply baseless, in what sense is Jesus being a high priest in Abraham day (according to you) different to him being high priest today?
That is not my argument at all at the moment. Again, my claim is that the angel meant what they sent and weren't lying. Your argument is that the Angels did not mean what they literally said but were speaking as part of a team, something that NOT once happens in scripture. My claim can be backed up in scripture yours cannot.
The angels said God had sent THEM to destroy the city and that THEY were about to destroy it, scripture then says Jehovah rained down fire from Jehovah in the heavens. Either there are two Jehovah's which is impossible since Jehovah is One (deut 6:4) or the angels were spoken as Jehovah since they were his representatives, thus Jehovah (angels) rained down fire from Jehovah in the heaven (one God Jehovah).
There are others in the bible who are spoken of as god/gods other than the one God, these are a type of secondary god(s). 1 Cor 8:5,6 clearly demonstrates this. God judging among the Gods as mentioned in Psalms 82:6 is not a scripture that is all encompassing in relation to what type of gods there are. Moreover, Psalms 82:6 is not talking about God judging the gods but rather that God judges amongst the gods. God divinely appointed men to judge the nation of Israel, these men are the ones referred to as gods in John 10:34 and Psalms 82:1 that Jesus quotes.
You say Jesus was not that type of god mentioned in Psalms 82:1 yet that is the very type of god Jesus said he was when defending himself, see John 10:32-36.
This does not prove Jesus is the one God anymore than 2 Cor 4:4 proves Satan is the one God.
It is not my argument its the bible argument. There is only one God in the ultimate sense, Jesus himself said only the Father was that God (John 17:3), 1 Cor 8:6 says the Father is that One God, however the verses preceding 1 Cor 8:6 state there are others that are called God, since Jesus was not the One God in v6 then he must be one of those other gods mentioned.
According to scriptures how many saviours are there? See Isaiah 43:11.
Let's remain focused now, my question here does not involve Jesus. Is a copy of the declaration of independence the first initial written declaration of Independence?
Spoiler
I get what you're trying to say and do but it won't work, I'm a big sci-fi fan myself, but the technicality you think is there is not there. You can make a judgement on who is who because you've witnessed the creation of this copy of yourself. I can keep adding modifiers to my question but it won't change anything, I know you think you're being smart but trust me you're not.
If I magically made a image of you, who was exactly the same as you, you watched me make him through a window in a locked room with 24 video surveillance so we could be sure the two of you didn't get mixed up, not 10 seconds after I created him with him still being tied down to the table I created him on I killed him have I killed you, the person who just saw me kill your image or have I killed your image? Remember I'm not asking you who I killed from your point of view if you were there, but rather, who did I actually kill from a factual point of view, you or the copy.
Spoiler
