The Trinity

[NWL]

I'm not too "scared" to answer any of your questions, and you're making a fool of yourself by suggesting it. Let's look at Psalm 82. Your JW Bible won't cut it here, but we can do this just by explaining the meaning of the Psalm. It speaks for itself once you actually read it.

This Psalm is talking about the Judges God gave Israel....they had the power to speak for God when they deliberated what came in front of their bench. God is asking them how long they "will judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked". He tells them to be impartial...to defend the poor and fatherless...to do "justice". He reminds them, though they sit on the judges bench and are mighty with the power God has given them, they will die like men. They are not gods...deities of any kind.

Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.​

This is a perfect example of how the cults take such verses...not even bothering to read them, apparently, to make some outlandish claims about men being "gods". It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

My JW bible? Most if not nearly all other bibles read excatly the same way, who are you trying to fall. :kookoo:

You cleary don't understand my point nor what the bible actually says, you say "They are not gods"... um, well the scripture litreally says "In the middle of the gods he judges", like I said before, take the bible for what it says, stopping forcing your own understanding in it. They were gods, not in the same sense as God, not as deities no, but they were still gods. If scripture says they were gods then they're gods, period.

I don't know why you underlined that God positions himself in the congregation of the mighty. Did you miss in the translation you cited where it still refers to them as godsss!!? I underlined and highlighted it in red for you.

I knew exactly who Psalms 82 was in reference to, I already stated it was in regards to divinely appointed judges to either you or someone not too long ago, these were the ones Jesus alluded to in John 10:34 when he called men gods.

This is the exact point I was making and you proved it to me perfectly. Men can be called gods! Just as angels can be called gods.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Three different Persons.



"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - John 4:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John4:24&version=NKJV

There is one "Divine Spirit", as you put it.

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one (echad*)! - Deuteronomy 6:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy6:4&version=NKJV

*From
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm:

Yachid vs. Echad: The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid" or "bad").

Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.​

GOD is three people?

Could you show the scripture that says this as opposed to the scripture that says GOD is spirit?

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[JudgeRightly]

GOD is three people?

Could you show the scripture that says this as opposed toothed scripture that says GOD is spirit?

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Don't forget the Granville Sharp rule.

"in the name (singular), of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

One name (YHWH), three persons.

 

[NWL]

Actually, there's a reason for there not being a "ho" in John 1:1 in front of God.

Here, let me show you the Greek and English versions side by side:

There's something called the Granville Sharp rule.

Read this, it applies to the Koine Greek John 1:1.
http://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule

As for which post...

...

8528, and the links I wanted you to look at were these:

kgov.com/deity
kgov.com/jehovahs-witnesses-secretly-recorded

In addition, I think you should go through http://kgov.com/cult-teachings-exposed-here-on-bel as well.

Haha! See I knew it, you find an issue in me capatilizing 2 Cor 4:4 even though it should technically be there, but when It comes John 1:1 where is shouldn't you get all iffy.

I don't see how an interliner version of John 1:1 shows that the theos in part b should be written as a capital G??? Just the same as any other translation showing God capital G in their translation, it doesn't prove anything.

You tell me from your own mouth.. or fingers, what contextual or grammatical reasons are there for or against translating theos in John 1:1b as god.

Furthermore, what does the TSKS rule has anything to do with John 1:1?

I've seen the link and recording before, the reasoning on the website is the same old washed out reasoning as is the man reasoning in the recording. JW's have never made prophesied, they've merely interpreted propehcy in the bible incorrectly, there's a difference in interpreting a prophecy and being incorrect and making a prophecy and being incorrect. One makes you a false prophet (BAD BAD), the other one make you a false prophecy interpreter, which isn't that bad a thing.

 

[keypurr]

Which scripture tells you that? Because John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Became flesh, as in, came into existence (which is what the word used in Greek means). Tell me how that does not match Luke 1:35.{/quote]

The question is WHEN did the logos become flesh? Acts 10:38 tells you that it happened at the anointing of Jesus.

And the angel answered and said to her, “ The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke1:35&version=NKJV

Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit is NOT the logos.

Did the Holy Spirit also indwell Mary? NO! OF COURSE NOT!

So why do you assume that the Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus is any different?

Understand that the logos I believe is the spirit son, the express image of the Father, not the Holy Spirit.

but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. - Philippians 2:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians2:7&version=NKJV

True

The Logos emptied (the Greek uses the word for emptied, but it means the same thing) Himself (ie making Himself of no reputation). He grew up like we did, but unlike us humans, He was the perfect Son to His mother and earthly father, learning just as a normal human being.

When? I see him dwelling IN Jesus, the BODY PREPARED HIM. The logos has the power of the Father.

If Jesus was just a man, and not God With Us, he would have had to not sin for 30 years.

Jesus is the son of the most high. Yet he is human, I would think that Mary taught him who he was.

Now, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure no man has ever, when presented with the opportunity to either sin or not sin when He was young, having the knowledge and understanding of the difference between right and wrong, chosen to not sin after reaching the age of accountability.

We know that Jesus did. He grew in wisdom like we did.

And if he had sinned, then his death could not have been sufficient for even his own sin, let alone the sin of the world.

No, the only possible way for Jesus to have not sinned is if he were God in the flesh, God With Us, as Matthew 1:23 calls Him.

I disagree, sin is a state of mind. We can keep the Law in the spirit. Jesus did.

The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. - Acts 10:36-38 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts10:36-38&version=NKJV

He began AFTER the baptism.......YOUR WORDS.
We agree then that at his baptism he receive something special.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Keypurr, I don't see anywhere where it says that the Holy Spirit "indwelt" Jesus, only that Jesus was annointed with the Holy Spirit and power.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Jesus was called Christ by Herod. (Matthew 2:4)

President Kennedy was born in Boston but he was not the President at birth.

He wasn't baptised with the Logos. I seriously don't know where you're getting this from. Scripture says (in Acts 10:38 and Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, and John 1:32-33) says the Spirit (with a capital 'S', meaning it's a name, or is talking about one of the persons of God), the Pneuma, or the Holy Spirit, the Hagio Pneuma.

READ the words without preconceived thoughts

In fact, John gives a few more details about the event than the other four gospels.

And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” - John 1:32-34 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:32-34&version=NKJV

That supports my thoughts

Also, see the parallel of names between the above passage and Luke 1:35.

"Son of God" is used in both passages. In Greek, there is no capital letters to denote names, but the translators recognized that the "Son of God" is called Holy One earlier in the verse, and since only God is holy (1 Samuel 2:2), we know that "Son of God" in this instance is talking about the Son, the Logos, the Christ.

Ergo, Jesus is the Christ.

Also...

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. - Isaiah 9:6-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah9:6-7&version=NKJV

This is talking about Jesus. Calling Jesus God and the other titles? Only God is worthy to be called God. Ergo, Jesus is God.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Do you see the difference between O God and God in this translation?

One is God, one is a FORM of God. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Christ is a creation who was giving the fullness of God. But he is not God, he is Lord, made so by his God.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually I said Jesus is a God, this is what I said to you "It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God."

But tbh it doesn't really matter.

Maybe glorydaze wants to apologize?



Now will glorydaze and you get it straight?

I can't make it any clearer than he did. He used a double negative at the end of his sentence, but most people were able to understand it. Above we see where he is clarifying it for the simple.

 

[God's Truth]

Oooh oooh..... Pick me pick me....

Sorry. I already answered it.

GOD is spirit regardless of what manifestation we may perceive IT in.

Scripture clearly states that GOD is spirit.

Right?

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Haaaaa! lol

Everyone should see how easy you answered that and try it too.

Okay now, you believe the Father is Spirit, Jesus is Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is Spirit.

Do you believe they are three different Spirits?

 

[glorydaz]

You ignored me again.

Why does Jesus call the Father the only true God in John 17:3? Did Jesus mean only when he said only?

(John 17:1,3) "..Father... This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.."

Just tell me you're not going to answer and I'll stop asking.

I did answer. I told you it's obvious Jesus knows what you don't....that God is ONE, triune in nature. There is only ONE True God. Of course, by ripping the verse from it's context, you may have missed the rest of the prayer. And, it's odd you should choose this text, since it so clearly proves Jesus claims for Himself the same divine Glory He had with God before the world was....that He was pre-existent with the Father from the beginning. How in the world can you miss it?

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

 

[God's Truth]

My JW bible? Most if not nearly all other bibles read excatly the same way, who are you trying to fall. :kookoo:

You cleary don't understand my point nor what the bible actually says, you say "They are not gods"... um, well the scripture litreally says "In the middle of the gods he judges", like I said before, take the bible for what it says, stopping forcing your own understanding in it. They were gods, not in the same sense as God, not as deities no, but they were still gods. If scripture says they were gods then they're gods, period.

I don't know why you underlined that God positions himself in the congregation of the mighty. Did you miss in the translation you cited where it still refers to them as godsss!!? I underlined and highlighted it in red for you.

I knew exactly who Psalms 82 was in reference to, I already stated it was in regards to divinely appointed judges to either you or someone not too long ago, these were the ones Jesus alluded to in John 10:34 when he called men gods.

This is the exact point I was making and you proved it to me perfectly. Men can be called gods! Just as angels can be called gods.

How about answer my questions about the Spirit of God.

I want to prove something with scripture and it could bring all of us to like mindedness.

 

[God's Truth]

I can't make it any clearer than he did. He used a double negative at the end of his sentence, but most people were able to understand it. Above we see where he is clarifying it for the simple.

If you want me to keep showing you your mistake I will.

No worries. You were right however, I am a JW and just to let you know Jehovah's witnesses don't deny Jesus is God, we deny he his God being part of a trinity. It is a misconception that JW's don't believe Jesus is a God.

 

[God's Truth]

JudgeRightly,

I am still waiting for you to answer one of the questions.

You said the Father is a "spirit", Jesus is a "spirit", and the Holy Spirit is a "spirit".

Are they three different "spirits"?

 

[glorydaz]

I love it! So you're trying to fight scripture with scripture, very smart of you. Lets have a look and see what the scripture you showed says.

Col 1:16

NIV: For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

NLT: For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

ESV: For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

KJV: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

The writer of Col uses the Greek word dia, which can have both a causal [by] and intermediate [through] meanings. How do we know it has an intermediary meaning when it comes to Christ in Col 1:16, because the writer uses Greek passive word forms, such as ektisqh, showing that Christ did not create but that things were created through him by another. It is for this reason most modern translations, not like the one you decided to use, state that things were created through Jesus in Col 1:16.

As already shown, both Hebrews 1:1,2 and 2 Cor 8:6 show that the act of creating was by means of the father and through Jesus. Again you arguing about something which is widely known and elementary. You're arguing about the undeniable.



I didn't show 1 Cor 8:6 because it talks about God being one, re-read it, 1 Cor 8:6 says "there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything". It cleary shows that things were made BY God THROUGH Jesus. How you're arguing against this I don't know.

I can understand why you like to use different translations, but they all prove the same thing.
All things were created by for through of Jesus Christ. He is the Creator God. You don't seem to understand the Shema, which says the Lord our God IS ONE LORD. Who is the ONE LORD in 1 Cor. 8:6? It's Jesus Christ.

Thomas knew what the Shema meant.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.​

 

[God's Truth]

I can understand why you like to use different translations, but they all prove the same thing.
All things were created by for through of Jesus Christ. He is the Creator God. You don't seem to understand the Shema, which says the Lord our God IS ONE LORD. Who is the ONE LORD in 1 Cor. 8:6? It's Jesus Christ.

Thomas knew what the Shema meant.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.​

Isn't that what the Father says too about Himself?

 

[glorydaz]

JudgeRightly,

I am still waiting for you to answer one of the questions.

You said the Father is a "spirit", Jesus is a "spirit", and the Holy Spirit is a "spirit".

Are they three different "spirits"?

Where are your verses? Do you think you're right if you can get enough people to agree with you?

That isn't the way it works. Post the verses you're attempting to prove. opcorn:

 

[God's Truth]

Where are your verses? Do you think you're right if you can get enough people to agree with you?

That isn't the way it works. Post the verses you're attempting to prove. opcorn:

You have to answer the questions first.

How about you?

Try answering the questions.

 

[glorydaz]

Isn't that what the Father says too about Himself?

Of course He does. There is ONE GOD.

Leviticus 18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.

 

[glorydaz]

You have to answer the questions first.

How about you?

Try answering the questions.

How can I bring forth verses that don't exist?

You have to bring forth verses you claim exist.

 

[keypurr]

Don't forget the Granville Sharp rule.

"in the name (singular), of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

One name (YHWH), three persons.

Complete assumption that God is three persons.


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[God's Truth]

Of course He does. There is ONE GOD.

Leviticus 18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.

There is only one God, and He is the Father.

Since Jesus is God, do you finally admit he is the Father?

 

[God's Truth]

How can I bring forth verses that don't exist?

You have to bring forth verses you claim exist.

Why are you so afraid to answer questions?

You are struggling inside with your beliefs?