Theology Club: The Faith of Christ

[Jerry Shugart]

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).​

This verse speaks of the imputed righteousness of God and Paul says that it comes unto all and upon all them that believe.

But what about the phrase "the faith of Christ" ?

Actually, when the KJV came into existence those who heard the word "faith" knew that one of that word's meanings is faithfulness. in the KJV Dictionary we read this as one of the definitions of "faith":

"Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises."

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/faith.html​

Also, the Greek word pistis is translated "faith" and one of the meanings of that word is:

"fidelity, faithfulness, the character of one who can be relied on" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

Therefore, we can understand that the following is the way which Romans 3:21-22 should be understood:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).​

 

[Danoh]

Though I agree, Jerry, at the same time, the basis of your argument there does not necessarily make its case, as you are basing too much on too little.

Fact is, that even without the nine or so passages - all only in Romans thru Philemon - there are even more passages - even outside of Romans thru Philemon - that make/prove the case of "the faith OF Christ" a valid one.

Just a thought...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Though I agree, Jerry, at the same time, the basis of your argument there does not necessarily make its case, as you are basing too much on too little.

Fact is, that even without the nine or so passages - all only in Romans thru Philemon - there are even more passages - even outside of Romans thru Philemon - that make/prove the case of "the faith OF Christ" a valid one.

Just a thought...

Show me just one use of the phrase "faith of Christ" where the meaning must be referring to the Lord Jesus' beliefs.

 

[Danoh]

Show me just one use of the phrase "faith of Christ" where the meaning must be referring to the Lord Jesus' beliefs.

Brother, one of us is what's referred to lingusitics as a Mismatcher.

Where a person says one thing the other hears the opposite of.

Your above; quoted in my post here, was NOT what I was asserting, lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your above; quoted in my post here, was NOT what I was asserting, lol

I would like to hear your evidence in regard to what you said here:

Fact is, that even without the nine or so passages - all only in Romans thru Philemon - there are even more passages - even outside of Romans thru Philemon - that make/prove the case of "the faith OF Christ" a valid one.

Please provide that evidence.

Thanks!

 

[Danoh]

I would like to hear your evidence in regard to what you said here:

"Fact is, that even without the nine or so passages - all only in Romans thru Philemon - there are even more passages - even outside of Romans thru Philemon - that make/prove the case of "the faith OF Christ" a valid one. "

Please provide that evidence.

Thanks!

In Romans 3, the Apostle Paul relates:

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

In other Words, God is faithful to His Word; He has said He would do some things concerning that mazing people - Israel - and do them He will.

3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

God is true to His Word.

In fact, He has a phrase for that - beautiful one at that!

Malachi 4:

6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

That's Who Israel's God was/is - "I Am The LORD."

A God of His Word - "God is faithful."

The Son shares this same attribute...

One of those most heartbreaking passages in all of Scripture bears this out - Luke 22:

41. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42. Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Isaiah 11:
5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You seem to agree that when the term "faith of God" and "faith of Christ" are used you think that the meaning is "faithfulness."

Is that correct?

 

[Danoh]

You seem to agree that when the term "faith of God" and "faith of Christ" are used you think that the meaning is "faithfulness."

Is that correct?

Yes.

 

[glorydaz]

You seem to agree that when the term "faith of God" and "faith of Christ" are used you think that the meaning is "faithfulness."

Is that correct?

Yes.

:doh:

 

[musterion]

Is it true there actually is neither "in" nor "of" in the Greek, but either is provided by translators?

 

[glorydaz]

Is it true there actually is neither "in" nor "of" in the Greek, but either is provided by translators?

No. It's just a different system. Check this out for instance.

http://www.motorera.com/greek/lessons/appendix3.html

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The exegetical issue is just whether the words in question are an "objective" or "subjective" genitive construction.

In other words, context and grammar, plus a study of Paul's (and the whole Bible's) theology, are factors in deciding/determining what he means.

Is "faith of Christ" speaking of my faith in Christ as object of faith? Or is "faith of Christ" speaking of Christ's faith, he being the subject doing the believing?

The latter really has no theological basis, other than someone choosing to make the "most" of the few times such a grammatical expression is used, and making such a read properly basic. This error is the sort of stuff from the likes of NT Wright and Company.

If it be said that works are still vital, or if it be contended that Christ's active obedience (his faithfulness) is also important to our redemption, who can argue? But the question is whether these texts have those ideas in view.

What we do find is that frequently where the subjective-read is taken, the result is a new emphasis on the believer's imitation of Christ's "faith" or "faithfulness" as that condition which is essential to his salvation. Being "faithful" to the "Christ-who-was-faithful" (turning one's allegiance over to Christ-as-Lord) becomes the mark of one who is prepared for salvation. But the problem is: such a view undoes the apostolic argument for salvation by grace through faith alone. "Faith" is not substituted for "works" in the salvation equation. Faith does not become, or is not accepted by God in lieu of, works; nor especially is faithfulness or commitment so taken.

Faith is "not-working" in regards to salvation. Faith is instrumental for receiving the incoming of God to save the unsavable, but faith is not itself meritorious or worthy or a mark by which God (now) judges. Faith is that means by which God justifies the ungodly. God says, "I save you by my power, and by my work; I deal with the consequences of sin, and I grant eternal life gratuitously; and all this I do without prejudice to myself, my justice, my holiness." And thanks be to God some men believe that seemingly impossible Word, and in believing they are in fact saved.

AMR

 

[Danoh]

The Faith OF Christ - A Doctrine...

The Faith OF Christ - A Doctrine...

And how does one study out a Doctrine?

In - the - Word; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17, rightly divided, 2 Timothy 2:15.

My understanding as to "the faith of Christ" is the Word.

All one need mostly do is apply that basic, what is it; third grade elementary school rule of reading - "we arrive at the author's intended sense by how they are using words, where, and how they are, etc.."

My basic approach is to keep my nose in my KJV; running the passages, comparing them, applying the Mid-Acts Hermeneutic that is the question 'okay, how does this work in light of God's Two-Fold Purpose?'

'And how is the Apostle Paul using words here? How do other writers, in the Word?'

In this, I find that "the faith of Christ" is a reference to His fidelity - He came to die for sin, and was faithful to that.

Again; Luke 22 illustrates what the Apostle Paul is referring to in his use of the phrase:

41. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42. Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Galatians 2:

16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Not by the works of the Law that man had been unable to be faithful to keeping; but by the faith of Christ - by the work He had been faithful to see thru - the work of the Cross.

Ours is but to believe - place our faith in - His faithfulness to what He came to do and "finished... unto death; even unto the death of the Cross."

Galatians 2:

19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20. I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave
himself for me.
21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Philippians 3:

8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10. That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11. If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

"...through the faith of - Christ" through what He was faithful to see through to - "his death."

Romans 3:

21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

It is a Doctrine...

Romans 5:

7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Galatians 3:

21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Something happened - the faith of Christ came - He came to die for sin and was faithful to that - unto - death!

Galatians 4:

4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

That word "adoption" is not our Modern Day understanding of that word. Even its wording reveals this. But that's another subject.

Ephesians 3:

12. In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Ephesians 2:

13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Much more could be said on this. Suffice it to say for now, "as it is written" - in 1 Thessalonians 5:

23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[glorydaz]

And how does one study out a Doctrine?

In - the - Word; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17, rightly divided, 2 Timothy 2:15.

My understanding as to "the faith of Christ" is the Word.

All one need mostly do is apply that basic, what is it; third grade elementary school rule of reading - "we arrive at the author's intended sense by how they are using words, where, and how they are, etc.."

My basic approach is to keep my nose in my KJV; running the passages, comparing them, applying the Mid-Acts Hermeneutic that is the question 'okay, how does this work in light of God's Two-Fold Purpose?'

'And how is the Apostle Paul using words here? How do other writers, in the Word?'

In this, I find that "the faith of Christ" is a reference to His fidelity - He came to die for sin, and was faithful to that.

Again; Luke 22 illustrates what the Apostle Paul is referring to in his use of the phrase:

41. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42. Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Galatians 2:

16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Not by the works of the Law that man had been unable to be faithful to keeping; but by the faith of Christ - by the work He had been faithful to see thru - the work of the Cross.

Ours is but to believe - place our faith in - His faithfulness to what He came to do and "finished... unto death; even unto the death of the Cross."

Galatians 2:

19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20. I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave
himself for me.
21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Philippians 3:

8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10. That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11. If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

"...through the faith of - Christ" through what He was faithful to see through to - "his death."

Romans 3:

21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

It is a Doctrine...

Romans 5:

7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Galatians 3:

21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Something happened - the faith of Christ came - He came to die for sin and was faithful to that - unto - death!

Galatians 4:

4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

That word "adoption" is not our Modern Day understanding of that word. Even its wording reveals this. But that's another subject.

Ephesians 3:

12. In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Ephesians 2:

13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Much more could be said on this. Suffice it to say for now, "as it is written" - in 1 Thessalonians 5:

23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Nice try. Faithfulness has to do with obedience to the law....duty....obligations fulfilled.

Does one walk on water by being faithful or by faith?

Did Jesus shed His blood because he was under OBLIGATION to do so, and faithfully performed that duty? No, there is a big difference between faithfulness in obedience to the law and the obedience of faith.....a work of faith and a work of the law. That is Paul's entire point and why he makes it so clear.

It most certainly is the faith of Jesus Christ, and it's why the Father was "well pleased". For it's faith that pleases God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Faithfulness has to do with obedience to the law....duty....obligations fulfilled

The Lord Jesus was faithful to the Father's will:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:8).​

It most certainly is the faith of Jesus Christ, and it's why the Father was "well pleased". For it's faith that pleases God.

Look at this verse:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).

Here it is the imputed righteousness of God which comes to all them that believe. It is not the Lord Jesus' faith which results in the imputed righteousness coming to a person but instead their own faith.

Therefore, the correct understanding of the verse is as follows:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).​

We see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).​

 

[glorydaz]

The Lord Jesus was faithful to the Father's will:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:8).​

I'm not saying our Lord was not faithful, but that has nothing to do with the righteousness of God being revealed by the faith of Jesus Christ. From faith to faith....our faith in His faith, which is the very power of the Gospel that Paul preached. ie. the righteousness of faith without the law.

Our Lord, the JUST ONE, lived and died by faith. Did He not? Are you saying Jesus Christ was a man with no faith of His own? That He did not trust God when He was obedient unto death.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.​

Look at this verse:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).

Here it is the imputed righteousness of God which comes to all them that believe. It is not the Lord Jesus' faith which results in the imputed righteousness coming to a person but instead their own faith.

Therefore, the correct understanding of the verse is as follows:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).​

We see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).​

Look out, Jerry, you're sounding like God's UNtruth when you say that. Our faith is nothing outside of the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tambora]

In this, I find that "the faith of Christ" is a reference to His fidelity - He came to die for sin, and was faithful to that.

:thumb:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Look out, Jerry, you're sounding like God's UNtruth when you say that.

That is exactly what Paul says:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"​

(Ro.4:5).

Here the word "his" as in "his faith" is referring to a man who worketh not but believeth.

So anyone with an open mind can see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus.

And that is what we see here:

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:24).

We receive the imputed righteousness of God when we believe. And that imputed righteousness which comes to us is only made possible by the faithfulness of Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

That is exactly what Paul says:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"​

(Ro.4:5).

Here the word "his" as in "his faith" is referring to a man who worketh not but believeth.

So anyone with an open mind can see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus.

And that is what we see here:

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:24).

We receive the imputed righteousness of God when we believe. And that imputed righteousness which comes to us is only made possible by the faithfulness of Christ.

You do fine until you get right up to calling the faith of Christ the faithfulness of Christ. So, No, it is made possible by the faith of Christ when we believe. It's why the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. His faith reveals the righteousness of God so we then trust and believe in that faith that He lived and died by.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

Those who hear the Gospel are no longer ignorant of God's righteousness because we know Christ laid down His life because He loved us.....not out of duty or obligation but because of love....His life was characterized by faith.

Romans 10:3-5 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.​

What is Paul comparing here? A man's faithful obedience to what? The law. Yes, Jesus was obedient to the law, but that is not what justifies. It's the difference between the obedience of the law and the obedience of FAITH. Not faithfulness, but faith.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

As a high priest He was faithful.

As a Lamb He lived and died by faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You do fine until you get right up to calling the faith of Christ the faithfulness of Christ.

Actually, when the KJV came into existence those who heard the word "faith" knew that one of that word's meanings is faithfulness. In the KJV Dictionary we read this as one of the definitions of "faith":

"Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises."​

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/faith.html​

Also, the Greek word pistis is translated "faith" and one of the meanings of that word is:

"fidelity, faithfulness, the character of one who can be relied on" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Of course you just IGNORED what I said about this verse:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).​

Here the word "his" as in "his faith" is referring to a man who worketh not but believeth.

So anyone with an open mind can see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus.

And that is what we see here:

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:24).​

We receive the imputed righteousness of God when we believe. And that imputed righteousness which comes to us is only made possible by the faithfulness of Christ.

Do you agree that we receive the imputed righteousness of God as a result of our faith?