Theology Club: The Faith of Christ

[glorydaz]

Actually, when the KJV came into existence those who heard the word "faith" knew that one of that word's meanings is faithfulness. In the KJV Dictionary we read this as one of the definitions of "faith":

"Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises."​

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/faith.html​

Also, the Greek word pistis is translated "faith" and one of the meanings of that word is:

"fidelity, faithfulness, the character of one who can be relied on" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Yes, but we are talking about what Paul means by the faith of Christ.

Of course you just IGNORED what I said about this verse:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).​

Here the word "his" as in "his faith" is referring to a man who worketh not but believeth.

So anyone with an open mind can see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus.

And that is what we see here:

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:24).​

We receive the imputed righteousness of God when we believe. And that imputed righteousness which comes to us is only made possible by the faithfulness of Christ.

Do you agree that we receive the imputed righteousness of God as a result of our faith?

I didn't ignore it at all. You give half an answer and want me to agree. I can't. You want to ignore the first three chapters of Romans and jump right into Romans 4. You miss something very important when you do that. Our faith is simply NOT ENOUGH to obtain anything unless our faith is based upon the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. Salvation is not of ourselves, remember? Notice...."He was able also to perform..." Was Abraham's faith alone there? No, it was NOT.

Romans 4:21-22
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.​

BECAUSE therein is the righteousness of God revealed. It's why I pointed out this verse ....Romans 1:17KJV. Romans 3:22KJV There are two faiths and ours is not the one that gives us life. Just as it takes two parties to be reconciled, God and man, it takes two faiths to obtain justification and life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Our faith is simply NOT ENOUGH to obtain anything unless our faith is based upon the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.

Our faith is based on believing on the work of Christ on the Cross, not His faith.

There are two faiths and ours is not the one that gives us life.

According to your ideas John was also wrong when he said:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).

Yes, but we are talking about what Paul means by the faith of Christ.

One of the meanings of "faith" is faithfulness. Did you not read what I said about the meaning of that word in the KJV Dictionary?

Our faith is simply NOT ENOUGH to obtain anything unless our faith is based upon the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. Salvation is not of ourselves, remember? Notice...."He was able also to perform..." Was Abraham's faith alone there? No, it was NOT.

Romans 4:21-22
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

This is speaking about what God had promised and Abraham believed that what God promised He was able to perform.

That is not speaking about the faith of God or the faith of Christ.

You are totally confused.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So anyone with an open mind can see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus.

Don't let your mind be so open that your brain falls out, Jerry.

"...for the Arminians, imputation is an aestimatio - God considers our righteousness (i.e., act of faith) as something that it is not (i.e., perfect). The Reformed, however, view imputation as secundum veritatem - God considers Christ's righteousness as our righteousness, precisely because it is, through union with Christ. The verdict that God passes on his Son is precisely the same verdict he passes on those who belong to Christ - but only through imputation."

See more:
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2015/05/arminian-versus-reformed-views.php#sthash.nEyP4tBw.dpuf

http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/faith-and-the-imputation-of-righteousness


AMR

 

[patrick jane]

That is exactly what Paul says:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"​

(Ro.4:5).

Here the word "his" as in "his faith" is referring to a man who worketh not but believeth.

So anyone with an open mind can see that it is a person's own faith which is counted for righteousness and not the faith of the Lord Jesus.

And that is what we see here:

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:24).

We receive the imputed righteousness of God when we believe. And that imputed righteousness which comes to us is only made possible by the faithfulness of Christ.

you contradict yourselves jerry -

 

[beloved57]

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).​

This verse speaks of the imputed righteousness of God and Paul says that it comes unto all and upon all them that believe.

But what about the phrase "the faith of Christ" ?

Actually, when the KJV came into existence those who heard the word "faith" knew that one of that word's meanings is faithfulness. in the KJV Dictionary we read this as one of the definitions of "faith":

"Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises."

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/faith.html​

Also, the Greek word pistis is translated "faith" and one of the meanings of that word is:

"fidelity, faithfulness, the character of one who can be relied on" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

Therefore, we can understand that the following is the way which Romans 3:21-22 should be understood:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Ro.3:21-22; KJV).​

Basically this Teaches that all whom Christ died for are made Righteous/receive imputed Righteousness based on not their own faith, but upon the Faithfulness of Christ, and it applies to all who are believing as a consequence of it !

In other words, If Christ was your surety and in His Faithfulness to the Everlasting Covenant He satisfied God's Law and Justice in your behalf, that will be revealed to you so you will believe it, you will be persuaded of it ! So that Righteousness has been imputed to all who are believing !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[/B]

you contradict yourselves jerry -

Where is your proof?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God considers Christ's righteousness as our righteousness, precisely because it is, through union with Christ.

No, the imputed righteousness which comes to all believers is apart from law, and that cannot be said of the Lord Jesus' righteousness:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe" (Ro.3:21-22).​

As usual the Calvinists cannot get anything right.

 

[Danoh]

:doh:

Lol

You poor thing; don't hurt your head there...

I was talking about His side of the issue - His obedience of faith that then makes ours possible through Him after we have believed that His obedience was sufficient - "...and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who gave His life for me, and gave himself, for me..."

"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..."

 

[beloved57]

danoh

His obedience of faith that then makes ours possible through Him after we have believed that His obedience was sufficient -

Thats not scripture ! Christ's Obedience makes them whom He died for, the Many, it makes them Righteous ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That word Righteous carrys with it even their experiential obedience ! So His Obedience does more than make their obedience possible, it effects it !

Just like adams disobedience made them experiential disobedient as sinners, Christ's obedience shall make them in practice Righteous and obedient !

To say that Christ's Obedience merely makes obedience possible, it to sale it short, even to make His Obedience less effective than adams disobedience was and what it effected !

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


The Lord Jesus believed the words written about him, and acted accordingly.


Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luke 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Luke 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is the specific obedience which is in regard to that verse:

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:8).​

 

[beloved57]

This is the specific obedience which is in regard to that verse:

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:8).​

That verse does not change what I just stated ! Christ's Obedience for the many makes them obedient !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Basically this Teaches that all whom Christ died for are made Righteous/receive imputed Righteousness based on not their own faith, but upon the Faithfulness of Christ, and it applies to all who are believing as a consequence of it !

Christ tasted death for all men but not all are made righteous:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

 

[beloved57]

Christ tasted death for all men but not all are made righteous:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

All the men He tasted death for are made Righteous or you are in denial of scripture !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All the men He tasted death for are made Righteous or you are in denial of scripture !

It is you who denies that Christ tasted death for all men. You just refuse to believe what is said at Hebrews 2:9 because you put more faith in what the Calvinists say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[beloved57]

It is you who denies that Christ tasted death for all men. You just refuse to believe what is said at Hebrews 2:9 because you put more faith in what the Calvinists say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

I affirm the scripture, all that He died for, every man, shall be made Righteous !Rom 5::19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

Even the every man in Heb 2:9 are the Many ! Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now are the Many here in Heb 9:28 the exact same as those He tasted death for in Heb 2:9 ? If they are, they are the same many of Rom 5:19 !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Even the every man in Heb 2:9 are the Many ! Heb 9:28

You try to justify your teaching by deception even though you do not believe that Christ tasted death for every man. I will waste no more time with you.

 

[beloved57]

You try to justify your teaching by deception even though you do not believe that Christ tasted death for every man. I will waste no more time with you.

Lol, that is right run from the truth and see you at the Judgment!

 

[Danoh]

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners?

I think not.

For "death passed upon all men."

One needs to study how all the passages use words, not just how many passages do.

 

[beloved57]

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners?

I think not.

For "death passed upon all men."

One needs to study how all the passages use words, not just how many passages do.

Then you dont believe the scripture Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And you teach a false view of a possible obedience :

Here is your statement:

His obedience of faith that then makes ours possible through Him after we have believed that His obedience was sufficient -

That nonsense isnt in the Bible !