Theology Club: The Beginning of the Present Dispensation Was at Acts 13

[Jerry Shugart]

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Thanks for the verse. The expression "in Him" is used constantly by Paul to speak of those who are in the Body of Christ:

"And be found IN HIM, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
" (Phil.3:9).

John also makes it plain that our life is in the Son:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

These Jewish Christians are told that the eternal life which has been given to them is 'in" the Son. This can only be in regard to how the sinner is made "alive together with Christ":

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

That matches what the author of Hebrews said here:

" But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Thanks for the verse. The expression "in Him" is used constantly by Paul to speak of those who are in the Body of Christ:

"And be found IN HIM, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
" (Phil.3:9).

John also makes it plain that our life is in the Son:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

These Jewish Christians are told that the eternal life which has been given to them is 'in" the Son. This can only be in regard to how the sinner is made "alive together with Christ":

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

That matches what the author of Hebrews said here:

" But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

Mixing the Vine and the Body.
You are in error.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Do you walk the earth as the LORD walked, Jerry?


1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you walk the earth as the LORD walked, Jerry?

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Is the life of Jesus manifested in your mortal flesh, STP?:

"For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Is the life of Jesus manifested in your mortal flesh, STP?:

"For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11).​

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2 Corinthians 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

2 Corinthians 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

2 Corinthians 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.


Who is the "us" and who is the "you"?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Do you walk sinless, Jerry?
Performing miracles?

Walk as he walked.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you walk the earth as the LORD walked, Jerry?

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Is the life of Jesus manifested in your mortal flesh, STP?:

"For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace," a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

The present dispensation began when the dispensational responsibility was first exercised by Paul. And since the following verse is speaking about Paul's gospel we can know that the present dispensation did not begin until he began to preach that gospel to Gentiles:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

I believe that Paul first preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles here:

"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:46-48).​

Paul's dispensational responsibility to preach the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles is spoken of here:

"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away" (Acts 13:2-3).​

 

[Shasta]

I see people trying to refute the letters of John as if those books are examples of "the law." Historically these books were written in the last decade of the First Century, long after the death of Peter, Paul and the Twelve. The Jews had revolted against Rome, the temple had been destroyed and their apostasy was pretty much complete. The Gentiles then comprised the overwhelming majority of Church membership

According to early leaders like Irenaeus John now resided in Ephesus. Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp of Smyrna who was taught by John himself so it had not been that long since John was around. We can see in Revelation that John ministered to the Churches in Asia Minor many of which had been started by Paul.

Internal evidence in John's epistle shows that he was not addressing issues common to the Jews. He was answering an assault on the Church by the Docetists who believed a form of Gnosticism. These beliefs had arisen out of Greek philosophy and appealed to those with a Hellenistic mindset. My point is the evidence supports the historical claim that John was no longer ministering to a small enclave of Jews in Judea. His writings are universal.

When you understand the beliefs of the Docetists what John wrote makes perfect sense. The main misunderstandings people have are due to their lack of understanding about how John used the present tense. John never demands perfection but he does tell us to walk in the light. Is the admonition to obey Christ now to be taken as legalism or as a part of a supposed "Jewish Gospel?" If it so then we must blame Paul too for listing all the sins he wanted Christians to abstain from.

There is no reason to exclude the writings of John from the body of relevant inspired scriptures that was written to and for all believers. This indiscriminate dumping of scriptures is one of the more egregious outcomes of MAD.

 

[DAN P]

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace," a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

The present dispensation began when the dispensational responsibility was first exercised by Paul. And since the following verse is speaking about Paul's gospel we can know that the present dispensation did not begin until he began to preach that gospel to Gentiles:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

I believe that Paul first preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles here:

"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:46-48).​

Paul's dispensational responsibility to preach the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles is spoken of here:

"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away" (Acts 13:2-3).​

Hi and as usal , CONTEXT riegns in Acts 13 !!

#1 , They were called to preach to who ?

#2 , Verse 5 and verse 14 says where they went to begin !!

#3 , In a SYNAGOGUES of the Jews !!

#4 Please notice that the Greek word " THEY PREACHED " is in the IMPERFECT Tense and tjhat means that there preaching to Jews terminated at Acts 18:6 and Acts 28:28 !!

#5 What did SAUL /PAUL preach to them ??

Acts 13 people , need to rethink Acts 9:6 as that is where THE Dispensation of Grace began with a man named SAUL/PAUL , THE FIRST / PROTO SAVED as a Pattern , 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and as usal , CONTEXT riegns in Acts 13 !!

#1 , They were called to preach to who ?

#2 , Verse 5 and verse 14 says where they went to begin !!

#3 , In a SYNAGOGUES of the Jews !!

Did they preach the "gospel of grace" in the synagogues?

Is that gospel the same as the "gospel of the circumcision" mentioned here?:

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Gal.2:7).​

 

[Shasta]

Did they preach the "gospel of grace" in the synagogues?

Is that gospel the same as the "gospel of the circumcision" mentioned here?:

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Gal.2:7).​

I have never seen those who belong to what you call the "neo-MAD" camp give a specific account of the contents of the "Jewish Gospel." I have heard hints that it was some Chimeric hybrid of "faith and works" The very idea flies in the face of everything that was taught by Jesus and Paul too. Outside of Christ's grace BOTH Jew and Gentile are under the condemnation of the law

9 What then? Are we Jews a any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
(Romans 3:9-12)

He does not offer an intermediate way for Jewish believers that is a mixture of works and grace.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God (Romans 3:19).

The whole world was not under the Mosaic covenant but all humanity is under the universal moral law it contained. Although God wants the moral law to be obeyed, following it (or trying to do so) is not enough.

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin (Romans 3:19-20)

His statement here applies to all mankind for

all are under sin and no one can be saved through works of the law (Romans 3:21-22)

23 for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith (Romans 3:23-25)

It looks like the pathway to redemption is the same for everyone just as Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." He was always the truth but going to the cross is what made Him the way and the life for us.

Having made this point would Paul have approved of some alternative "Jewish Gospel" partially based on the Law? The strong all-inclusive language he uses in Romans 3 precludes any deviation from the one message of Grace that he taught.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have never seen those who belong to what you call the "neo-MAD" camp give a specific account of the contents of the "Jewish Gospel." I have heard hints that it was some Chimeric hybrid of "faith and works" The very idea flies in the face of everything that was taught by Jesus and Paul too. Outside of Christ's grace BOTH Jew and Gentile are under the condemnation of the law

I completely agree with you.

Having made this point would Paul have approved of some alternative "Jewish Gospel" partially based on the Law? The strong all-inclusive language he uses in Romans 3 precludes any deviation from the one message of Grace that he taught.

The "good news" or gospel which Paul preached to the Jews here is not based on the law:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The Jews who believed this gospel were saved when they were given life by being born of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

This news was certainly "good news" or gospel to the Jews and believing that "good news" brought salvation to all who believed it:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel (good news) of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

The "good news" of Christ which was first preached to the Jews was the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that all those Jews who believed that gospel were saved.

So that instance of "good news" perfectly fits what is said at Romans 1:16 concerning the "good news" of Christ.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I completely agree with you.



The "good news" or gospel which Paul preached to the Jews here is not based on the law:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The Jews who believed this gospel were saved when they were given life by being born of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

This news was certainly "good news" or gospel to the Jews and believing that "good news" brought salvation to all who believed it:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel (good news) of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

The "good news" of Christ which was first preached to the Jews was the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that all those Jews who believed that gospel were saved.

So that instance of "good news" perfectly fits what is said at Romans 1:16 concerning the "good news" of Christ.

Can a member of the Body believe that Jesus is the Christ, yet deny that he died for his sins and rose again?

 

[DAN P]

Did they preach the "gospel of grace" in the synagogues?

Is that gospel the same as the "gospel of the circumcision" mentioned here?:

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Gal.2:7).​

Hi and Acts 17:3 , Paul preached that this Jesus whom I preach unto you " is the CHRIST / MESSIAH and that is what Peter was doing at Acts 2:38 !!

dan p

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I am not sure why Jerry has a hangup about the gospel of God, Romans 1:1-4 (KJV), being a foundation truth for both churches in Acts.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can a member of the Body believe that Jesus is the Christ, yet deny that he died for his sins and rose again?

Of course not! What is your point?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's faith plus works all the way to the end for them and you know it, JS! So you want me to post everything they have to do again?

Then why do none of the verses which I quoted say anything about works?

All I can see from you is the fact that your final authority is not the Bible but instead the teaching within the Neo-MAD community. and that is why you refuse to believe these verses which prove that BELIEVING that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, brings life when being born of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Neither of those passages say anything about doing "works" in order to receive life by being born of God.

Notice how JS asks what Peter preached and then immediately jumps to what Paul preached...

So you do not think that Peter taught the "who of Jesus on the day of Pentecost?:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Of course not! What is your point?

Is it possible that some of the Corinthians saved by believing Jesus is the Christ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can a member of the Body believe that Jesus is the Christ, yet deny that he died for his sins and rose again?

Once they were given life as a result of believing that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, then they would never deny that Christ died for our sins.

This is demonstrated in the life of Apollos. At one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).​

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).​

Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking about the Jews and Gentiles being made "one" and reconciled in one Body. It is inconceivable that Paul would say that both he and Apollos were "one" but yet they were not "one" because Paul belongs within the Body of Christ but Apollos did not.

And Paul said nothing which even hinted that only "some" of the Jewish believers were reconciled unto one body by the Cross.