ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

[Levolor]

Job was Old Testament Salvation...
NO mediation between God and Job...
And some kind of relationship!
And on familiar terms, each with the other...
God approved in every way...
And polished by the trials God gave him...
And rewarded after them...

So what exactly does New Testament Salvation ADD TO what Job had??

Or does it add nothing?

Arsenios

I had thought that my previous post might have answered your question, but, alas, not.

Yes, Job received much and gained understanding, too.

I'll have to wait till you provide the answer, for at present I seem to only think of: High Priest who intercedes upon our behalf... Our Mediator.

 

[serpentdove]

Job received much and gained understanding, too.

What understanding?

 

[Levolor]

What understanding?

I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Job 42:5

Before the end of the book of Job, Job has only known of God by others speaking of Him. Here at the end of the book, Job understands because He sees Him for himself/Job.

What does Job understand? Job did ask many questions and he came to understand the answers. One thing for sure, Job came to know is not to fear. Job 3:25

A related verse to Job's seeing:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2

 

[serpentdove]

...One thing for sure, Job came to know is not to fear. Job 3:25

I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came [Job 3:25–26].

"Job had been dwelling in peace and prosperity in the land of Uz, and things had been going so well with him. He was living in the lap of luxury. Everyone was saying, “Look at Job. He certainly has a wonderful life.” Job says, “At that very moment, I was living in fear. And the thing that I dreaded has come upon me.” His tranquility even in his days of prosperity was disturbed by the uncertainty of life.

I think that is a fear of a great many people today. They fear that something terrible is going to happen to them. Our problem is that we grab for our security blanket instead of grabbing for the Savior. We ought to be using our Bible for our blanket instead of turning to other things. We need to rest upon the Word of God.

One would almost get the impression that Job has lost his faith. He actually has not. This is the bitter complaint of a man who is tasting the very dregs in the bottom of the cup of life. Trouble has come upon him and he does not understand at all why it should have come.

It is a monologue of complaint as his friends sit around him. The language is tremendous, but Job does not have the answer. It is black pessimism." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: Poetry (Job) (electronic ed., Vol. 16, pp. 38–39). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

"Jb 3:25, 26 the thing I greatly feared. Not a particular thing but a generic classification of suffering. The very worst fear that anyone could have was coming to pass in Job’s life, and he is experiencing severe anxiety, fearing more." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 700). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

 

[Krsto]

The shed blood of Jesus made peace with God. It was the "Blood of the Lamb", just in case you need further clarification, that took away the sins of the world. Translation: Adam's transgression was canceled out that released man from the bondage of spiritual death.

Yes, the shed blood makes peace with God for those who need it. For those who don't need the peace but need cleansing from sin (which is everyone), his blood takes away our sin, experientially, by providing entrance into the sheepfold of God where we can be cleansed daily as we rise to walk in newness of life, be raised from glory to glory into the image of Christ, and enjoy the New Covenant in which the Law is written on our hearts. This is the translation, not "Adam's transgression was canceled out that released man from the bondage of spiritual death." What does that even have to do with "taking away the sins of the world"? It doesn't. You want to read it as some legal transaction rather than what it is, a statement about covenant relation. You, along with most Evangelicals, have missed what the Gospel is about, trading it for some legal transaction that makes God out to be a pagan God because he can't just up and forgive people without killing someone. Your God is pathetic. Learn about the real God and what he has done for man through his Son.

 

[Levolor]

I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came [Job 3:25–26].

"Job had been dwelling in peace and prosperity in the land of Uz, and things had been going so well with him. He was living in the lap of luxury. Everyone was saying, “Look at Job. He certainly has a wonderful life.” Job says, “At that very moment, I was living in fear. And the thing that I dreaded has come upon me.” His tranquility even in his days of prosperity was disturbed by the uncertainty of life.

I think that is a fear of a great many people today. They fear that something terrible is going to happen to them. Our problem is that we grab for our security blanket instead of grabbing for the Savior. We ought to be using our Bible for our blanket instead of turning to other things. We need to rest upon the Word of God.

One would almost get the impression that Job has lost his faith. He actually has not. This is the bitter complaint of a man who is tasting the very dregs in the bottom of the cup of life. Trouble has come upon him and he does not understand at all why it should have come.

It is a monologue of complaint as his friends sit around him. The language is tremendous, but Job does not have the answer. It is black pessimism." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: Poetry (Job) (electronic ed., Vol. 16, pp. 38–39). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Fear is the opposite of faith and trust. It, the spirit of fear, creates for us what it is we fear... just as the book of Job shows us.

That's what I know, and what scripture validates. God will show everyone this in His good time when we are each ready to endure such an ordeal without losing faith.

Trouble has come upon him and he does not understand at all why it should have come.

And yet Job comes to see/understand as written in Job 42:5.

It is a monologue of complaint as his friends sit around him. The language is tremendous, but Job does not have the answer. It is black pessimism.

I find this part of the commentary interesting, since we are told (it is written) that it is the friends who have not spoken correctly and not Job:

And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. Job 42:7

Odd that the commentary would say that, and also at the same time say:

We ought to be using our Bible for our blanket instead of turning to other things. We need to rest upon the Word of God.

Seems to me that the commentary is not doing that, since it is contradicting the bible when the commentary states that the friends are listening to Job's black pessimism monologue.

Odd indeed.



P.S. Editing to add:

I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came [Job 3:25–26].

Yes. Without doubt, Job was surprised for the trouble that had come for he had been making sacrifices... And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. Job 1:5

Job had been making sacrifices ... for things he imagined. For things that he feared... "may be".

 

[Arsenios]

I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Job 42:5

Before the end of the book of Job, Job has only known of God by others speaking of Him. Here at the end of the book, Job understands because He sees Him for himself/Job.

A related verse to Job's seeing:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2

Nice work Lev...

In this respect, both Old and New agree, that the presence of God transforms the person who 'sees' God Who cannot be seen... He is seen noetically (with the Nous), and the results are Glorious [These also He Glorifies]...

Moses positively shone with God's Light such that the Israelites could not look upon him, and had to avert their eyes...

SO....

What is it that John had that Job did not?
For they both had seen and been transfigured by God...

Or do both Job and John have the same Salvation??

Arsenios

 

[OCTOBER23]

WE ARE ALL BEING RECORDED DAILY AND STORED ON GOD'S HARDRIVE.

 

[Levolor]

Nice work Lev...

In this respect, both Old and New agree, that the presence of God transforms the person who 'sees' God Who cannot be seen... He is seen noetically (with the Nous), and the results are Glorious [These also He Glorifies]...

Moses positively shone with God's Light such that the Israelites could not look upon him, and had to avert their eyes...

SO....

What is it that John had that Job did not?
For they both had seen and been transfigured by God...

Or do both Job and John have the same Salvation??

Arsenios

Thank you.

Seems that it would be the same, but I do not know for sure. The O.T. speaks of God's saints, and since God does not change, it would seem reasonable/logical that they would have the same salvation. Yet, Isaiah 55:8-9.

I've read several versions of the bible... I say that not to boast, but to offer commiserating with me because I cannot find where I read one time that (paraphrased) he who gained wisdom would have salvation.

Now, Wisdom is Sophia and Sophia is one of Jesus Christ's name. So..., quick change of thought... say, does Orthodoxy see a difference between we being in Christ and Christ being within an individual?

Did I happen to say, about your question, that I did not know? Or, maybe, it is that I don't know that I know? That happens too every now and then.

God bless.

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you.

Seems that it would be the same, but I do not know for sure. The O.T. speaks of God's saints, and since God does not change, it would seem reasonable/logical that they would have the same salvation. Yet, Isaiah 55:8-9.

I've read several versions of the bible... I say that not to boast, but to offer commiserating with me because I cannot find where I read one time that (paraphrased) he who gained wisdom would have salvation.

Now, Wisdom is Sophia and Sophia is one of Jesus Christ's name. So..., quick change of thought... say, does Orthodoxy see a difference between we being in Christ and Christ being within an individual?

Did I happen to say, about your question, that I did not know? Or, maybe, it is that I don't know that I know? That happens too every now and then.

God bless.

It just happened...

In Christ is in His Body as a member of the Church...

Christ in us is the key to the puzzle...

But what is the difference between Christ in us and an Old Testament Saint being saturated with the Holy Spirit? I do not think that there is some experiential measure we have that can judge the difference... So it is not experientially discerned from personal experience... At least at the beginning...

Paul writes we have the Nous of Christ...

What does that even MEAN??

We do know that having the Nous of Christ is contingent upon holding the Mystery of the Faith (of Christ) in a pure (purified or cleansed) conscience... But in the Ekonomia of Christ, where he sends forth His Apostles to disciple all the Nations, teaching them ALL THINGS that He has commanded them to be carefully and precisely observing [the obedience of doing Christ's will in His Body, the Apostolic Church], and baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, what exactly has to happen in order that we come into possession of the Nous of Christ?

Because at some point, you see, Paul can say: "Not I, but Christ IN me..." And this in the Discipleship of denying one's self and taking up one's Cross daily, and following Christ, as this is discipled by the Body of Christ in obedience to Christ...

So it is a big deal...

Mind you...

Good night!

Arsenios

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes, the shed blood makes peace with God for those who need it.

Everyone needed it. Righteous or un-righteous. It makes no difference when we understand the scriptures are referring to Adam's transgression NO MAN could rectify because all mankind was born "unqualified" to do so. If you need to know why all of mankind was "unqualified" perhaps we can discuss it.

 

[Cross Reference]

See:

"What was the Old Testament way of salvation?"

What needs to be defined is the word "salvation" itself that it means being restored to a right standing IN God whereby man can enter His Holy Presence without fearing death by His Glory, cf Exo. 33:22 KJV. That is salvation as God NEEDS it to be because His reason for creating man was to inhabit his flesh. Does that make sense? It should. The righteous of the OT could go so far in Him and had to wait in paradise for the way to be made "perfectly opened up" before going the rest of the way. Does that also make sense?

 

[chrysostom]

I am constantly amazed how many people still don't know that until Jesus Christ shed his blood on the cross no peace with God was made that would have reconciled man with Himself that would have opened the doors to heaven for the righteous.

I am amazed as well

I am also amazed by the questions in the opening post
and
it proves that the meaning of words has been corrupted to the point of preventing any meaningful dialogue

 

[chrysostom]

What was Salvation in the OT?
What IS Salvation in Christ?

Are they different?
The same?

Arsenios

there was no salvation in the ot

that answers all four of your questions

 

[Cross Reference]

I am amazed as well

I am also amazed by the questions in the opening post
and
it proves that the meaning of words has been corrupted to the point of preventing any meaningful dialogue

Indeed, they have and I strongly suspect it is of Satan that is at the helm of it all. He recognizes man's "need" to be right and is simply capitalizing on it.

 

[Cross Reference]

David writes in Psalm 50 (51 in the LXX)

Restore unto me
The Joy of Thy Salvation...
And renew a right spirit...
Within me.

Now David was an Old Testament Prophet and King...
He is writing about Salvation from God...
Even the RENEWING of his spirit within him...
BY GOD, and by no one else...

Is there ANY DIFFERENCE between this Salvation...
And the Salvation of the New Testament Saints?

And if yes, then what is it?
And if not, why not, for there seem to be huge differences...

Arsenios

ONLY the JOY, Arsenios. Only the JOY!

Without that vision in man, man will destroy himself ___ and is because he is left alone.

 

[Cross Reference]

Perhaps Job can help us answer this question?

Nor is there any mediator between us,
Who may lay his hand on us both. Job 9:33

But he knew: "my redeemer lives". Job had a vision of it all that he clung to.

 

[Aimiel]

Do you not think that Moses, Elijah, and the rest of the Old Testament Holy Ones of God were SATURATED with the Holy Spirit? I think they were... I think they were positively DRENCHED in God, dripping forth holiness from every pore of their being... And I think you are close to what I am getting at here... They did not have what Paul had... And my question to you is: What did they not have?

God's Presence, inside of them. By Christ's sacrifice, we are cleansed. God looks at us as if we have never sinned. Our spirit is in perfect communion with The Holy Spirit. The patriarchs had God present around them, sometimes even more than what most people ever see in their selfish life; but they never had a single second of Him INSIDE of them. He permeates our being. No longer I live, but Christ lives in me. I died the day I got saved. Jesus now lives in me. He make all things new. He gives me my desires and changes me daily.

 

[Cross Reference]

Because the Holy Spirit is a Person...

The Old Testament Saints only knew the pre-incarnate Logos.

Arsenios

Please work through this: Exodus 33:22,23 (KJV 1900)
"And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen . . . for there shall no man see me [my face], and live".

 

[Aimiel]

The Old Testament Saints only knew the pre-incarnate Logos.

No such thing. Christ is the same, yesterday (eternally), today and forever. He has never changed.